The Ref Stop

Careful how you answer observer questions

santa sangria

santa sangria

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Had a top of the table challenging match with an observer. Quite niggly. A lot of foul decisions and cards.

Highlight for me was probably a reckless advantage in an attacking area. The fouled player didn’t use a great passing option and lost the ball. Play continued and I verbally reminded the offending player (there was a close call nearly a follow up offence) a card was coming - and I eventually YC’d at the next stoppage.

Intense match and a lot to remember in the debrief. Observer asked me about that card: was it SPA? I um and ah, can’t remember, say yes, hold my head, gutted as we discuss what I know very well, no SPA advantage YC.

It was all on video. Watch it back. Obvious reckless (not SPA), advantage not the best, could have delayed a bit. I contacted the observer, he watched it and agreed it was reckless. But - he still put in the report that I went SPA-advantage-YC. Argh!

Here we only have one code for USB so I never note if YC’s were SPA or reckless. Maybe next observer I note that!

Gutted really. My fault for not being cuter in the debrief - and for forgetting. But it’s a reminder to be smarter than me!
 
The Ref Stop
Agree with @one. Observer shouldn’t be asking the question in that way. They should be asking you to confirm your cautions. By doing what he/she has done, they’re assuming why you did what you did. And that isn’t what they’re there for.
 
one said:
We call that entrapment. Equivalent to gotcha when refereeing. Who was observing the observer?

Feel for you. Your report shouldn't be a reflection of how good you are in not falling for trick questions.
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I would not think it was a trick question, just trying to establish the facts/what had occurred - especially when Santa Sangria has said he only records USB, but once the reply was received, along with the follow up, it does seem disappointing it was reported in the way it was within the report.
 
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Wasn’t really a trick. And the observer I have known for 13 years and has given me hugely valuable advice and looked after me with some terrible beginner mistakes. We have disagreed on a few things but he’a a genuine observer. His speciality is being very clear on yellow cards and missed yellow cards!

So, this is not a slight on him. The pay for these is also dismal! Really is a PSA ;)
 
DavidObs said:
I would not think it was a trick question, just trying to establish the facts/what had occurred - especially when Santa Sangria has said he only records USB, but once the reply was received, along with the follow up, it does seem disappointing it was reported in the way it was within the report.
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Disagree.
Observer knew at the time he played advantage. Santa didnt say in his post that he told the observer it was USB first. Even if he did, there are many reasons for a USB. Why would observer lead him to the only option that would make him wrong in law. If the true motivation is to find fact, you don't influence the answer by leading.
 
one said:
Disagree.
Observer knew at the time he played advantage. Santa didnt say in his post that he told the observer it was USB first. Even if he did, there are many reasons for a USB. Why would observer lead him to the only option that would make him wrong in law. If the true motivation is to find fact, you don't influence the answer by leading.
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You are entitled to your opinion, but why would any observer want to ask a trick question to make him wrong in Law. That is not the role of any Observer & is alien to me. I don’t know of any Observer who would want to do that & I know hundreds, but if this is the case with this particular Observer, then hopefully he will get found out at some point.
 
DavidObs said:
You are entitled to your opinion, but why would any observer want to ask a trick question to make him wrong in Law. That is not the role of any Observer & is alien to me. I don’t know of any Observer who would want to do that & I know hundreds, but if this is the case with this particular Observer, then hopefully he will get found out at some point.
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I personally don’t think the observer has intentionally tried to trick the OP. But his wording could have been far better.

He has asked a leading question, and that shouldn’t really be done, as they are assuming why something was or wasn’t given. The simpler way would have been to just ask to confirm any cautions & red cards. Allow the referee to lead the conversation.

In this instance, @santa sangria has got a bit confused/flustered, which can happen to the best of us. Had the observer worded it as above, I doubt this happens.
 
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DavidObs said:
You are entitled to your opinion, but why would any observer want to ask a trick question to make him wrong in Law. That is not the role of any Observer & is alien to me. I don’t know of any Observer who would want to do that & I know hundreds, but if this is the case with this particular Observer, then hopefully he will get found out at some point.
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I know a few who would do that. But that is not to say that this Observer did it deliberately. Though putting it in the report even after it was established it was reckless doesn't do the ibserver much favours.

Why would an observer do it? I can think of a few reasons but it really isn't right putting them here. It would undermine the good work that many observers do.
 
Runner Ref said:
Agree with @one. Observer shouldn’t be asking the question in that way. They should be asking you to confirm your cautions. By doing what he/she has done, they’re assuming why you did what you did. And that isn’t what they’re there for.
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Even if he asked @santa sangria to confirm his cautions one by one chances are he would have still said SPA given he hadn't written the caution reasons down. He'd still have to remember what it was given for.
 
He could well have forgotten altogether, and then you would be correct. But the observer had basically put something into his mind. And maybe if you’re either nervous or too comfortable, you just agree with what the observer said.

Observers are there to ask questions, but the referee should be leading the discussion.
 
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RustyRef said:
When confirming cautions I go through each one and ask them to confirm, and not sure I can remember observers doing it the other way with me. And if I'm not sure if a caution was, for example, reckless or SPA I'd ask them. Not to catch them out, just to make sure my report is accurate.
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But by doing that you’re making an assumption. You aren’t there to assume, you’re there to observe. I don’t recollect a time at any level where an observer would assume something like this.

Maybe it’s a north vs south thing, who knows.

Format I always had was;

Observer- can we start by confirming cautions and sending offs

Referee- blue 2 caution- reckless challenge
Blue 6 caution- dissent
 
Runner Ref said:
But by doing that you’re making an assumption. You aren’t there to assume, you’re there to observe. I don’t recollect a time at any level where an observer would assume something like this.

Maybe it’s a north vs south thing, who knows.

Format I always had was;

Observer- can we start by confirming cautions and sending offs

Referee- blue 2 caution- reckless challenge
Blue 6 caution- dissent
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Not really making any assumptions. Most of the time the caution can only be for one thing it is that obvious, if it isn't I ask the question. No idea if it is a North / South thing, but it is certainly how I remember it being done when I was refereeing at senior levels.
 
RustyRef said:
Not really making any assumptions. Most of the time the caution can only be for one thing it is that obvious, if it isn't I ask the question. No idea if it is a North / South thing, but it is certainly how I remember it being done when I was refereeing at senior levels.
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It clearly is an assumption; look at what happened in the original post……..

If you don’t 100% know why something was done, which you won’t until you have spoken to the officials, you are assuming. You could assume something was for SPA, but then the referee has done them for persistent.
 
It is not a North/South issue, as all Observers from those reporting on 5>4 candidates through to those observing Level 3/4 referees receive the same Training Manual, the same guidance and training, and the same peer review system to maintain the required standards.
Like @RustyRef I will ask the referee to confirm the cautions/dismissals, with the time, team, shirt number, and if not obvious (e. g. Violent Conduct) the reason for the action.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
It is not a North/South issue, as all Observers from those reporting on 5>4 candidates through to those observing Level 3/4 referees receive the same Training Manual, the same guidance and training, and the same peer review system to maintain the required standards.
Like @RustyRef I will ask the referee to confirm the cautions/dismissals, with the time, team, shirt number, and if not obvious (e. g. Violent Conduct) the reason for the action.
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So you’re assuming. Which as we saw in the OP, can go very wrong
 
Runner Ref said:
If you don’t 100% know why something was done, which you won’t until you have spoken to the officials, you are assuming. You could assume something was for SPA, but then the referee has done them for persistent.
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May be, and they tell me and it is quickly cleared up.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
It is not a North/South issue, as all Observers from those reporting on 5>4 candidates through to those observing Level 3/4 referees receive the same Training Manual, the same guidance and training, and the same peer review system to maintain the required standards.
Like @RustyRef I will ask the referee to confirm the cautions/dismissals, with the time, team, shirt number, and if not obvious (e. g. Violent Conduct) the reason for the action.
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It has happened to me on a number of occasions when Referees don’t do themselves justice. For example I ask the Referee to confirm the misconduct & they will say Home/Away ? - foul tackle. I may ask at the time or when he/she has finished - just a foul tackle, though they often do not recall or may add Reckless Play or SPA. If they truly do not recall then, I would either inform them what I have, or give them credit within my report based upon my notes.
 
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