Which current Premier League referees are ex-professional players? Or former ones for that matter? Jon Moss played non-league, I'm struggling to think of any others.
BBC article - Ex pro's wanting to be referees
- Thread starter lincs22
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Closest I can think is Sam Allison who I believe played for Chippenham Town at what is step 3 and 4.
But he appears to have been a professional, certainly a senior at Bristol and Exeter City albeit never making an appearance.
Perceived bias is certainly a significant hurdle to this. There was furore and outage last season when Bobby Madley was appointed to a Barnsley game as he used to play for them. In reality he had been in their youth academy as a kid, never turned professional and certainly never played for them, but PGMOL were forced to replace him on the game because of the backlash. Ex-players could have played for so many clubs they could find themselves precluded from their games but also those of their close rivals. Can you imagine the reaction if an ex Portsmouth player was appointed to a Southampton game? There would be conspiracy theories like we've never seen before.
There's an argument to say that an ex-pro who never played a game as a pro isn't really an ex-pro. Certainly not in the argument that you need to have played the game to understand it. If the argument is that ex-professional will understand the game better because they have played professionally, it falls flat on its derriere when said player never actually kicked a ball in a professional game.
Where is the line then for “playing the game to understand it”? League 2? How many appearances are needed? A salary level? It’s a ridiculous assertion anyway when a former banker became a football manager and managed several top clubs.
I know it is a ridiculous assertion, but it is one that gets trotted out multiple times every single week. Even if not on TV, I used to get it regularly, especially at L3, and I won't have been the only one. Got to the point that I used to challenge them and when they said something like I'd have got it right if I'd played the game I had a pre-planned response and I told them I used to play for Worksop when they were in the Conference North. Shut them up, and the speed of my response and a vague Northern accent seemingly led to them believing it
My point is if it is asserted that someone needs to have played professionally to understand the professional game well enough to referee it, the people they are putting forward as the saviours of refereeing need to have actually played at least a few professional games. Not just been on the books of clubs when they were kids and not having kicked a ball in anger. I would hazard a guess the majority of the 120 that have put themselves forward are exactly that, players who were at pro clubs but never made it and were released. I just cannot see why ex-pros who finished their careers in late 20s or early 30s would put themselves forwards to become a referee.
I hope this statement from Howard Webb is not more very thinly veilled"positive recruitment". Have i misunderstood the meaning here?
We’ve made no secret that we are looking to broaden our pool of officials and entice people from other areas of the game and society into refereeing who may have historically not been well represented,” said PGMOL chief refereeing officer Howard Webb.
We’ve made no secret that we are looking to broaden our pool of officials and entice people from other areas of the game and society into refereeing who may have historically not been well represented,” said PGMOL chief refereeing officer Howard Webb.
Please tread very carefully on this topic. Don't want another thread derailed on the positive discrimination subject.
PGMOL are being very open that they want to progress those from under represented groups to entice others from within those communities into refereeing. This is about increasing the talent pool and supporting the whole refereeing eco system in the process.
I thought anybody 14+ can apply to do a referee course at their CFA. If people want to become a referee they can. Has that changed?
That's hardly new news, for the last decade and longer CFAs have had targets set by the FA for the percentage of female and ethnic minority backgrounds, the latter varies depending on the region, for example the percentage is much higher in London that it is in Somerset. The same applies to their councils, they have targets for the same categories. And, as @JamesL has said, the FA and PGMOL have been very open that they want to encourage those from underrepresented groups into refereeing.
Yes they can. But that's not the barrier. No more, thank you.
Please keep the thread on topic.
None of the rhetoric is new. It all has it's origins in Big Business, Organisations and Corporations
I'm not comfortable with it all because it has a brainwashing feel to it. I don't think the message is born out of good intent. It's an insidious form of Marketing. There can't be any form of debate on any of it because anyone who sticks their head above the parapet will be shot down and deemed prejudiced in some way. Young people are conditioned into thinking that if they can't have what they want, it's because they're disadvantaged or victims of some sort. The irony is that this mindset breeds animosity and hatred and is self-defeating
Anyway, this thread is about ex-pros being Refs, so I shan't comment any further on the FA and the image they're falling over themselves to portray. Ironically, when I invoked the discrimination protocol this year, I wished I hadn't bothered and won't rush to do so again
I'm not comfortable with it all because it has a brainwashing feel to it. I don't think the message is born out of good intent. It's an insidious form of Marketing. There can't be any form of debate on any of it because anyone who sticks their head above the parapet will be shot down and deemed prejudiced in some way. Young people are conditioned into thinking that if they can't have what they want, it's because they're disadvantaged or victims of some sort. The irony is that this mindset breeds animosity and hatred and is self-defeating
Anyway, this thread is about ex-pros being Refs, so I shan't comment any further on the FA and the image they're falling over themselves to portray. Ironically, when I invoked the discrimination protocol this year, I wished I hadn't bothered and won't rush to do so again
We don't want this to get out of hand and off topic. We would ask that before anyone posts about positive discrimination, which is illegal, they understand the UK employment law which doesn't allow that but does allow positive action. This can be seen here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...or-employers/positive-action-in-the-workplace
It is a long document, so to call out the key thing, organisations are allowed to use positive actions if they consider and document a number of items, the first one of which is ...
There can be absolutely zero doubt that there is a disproportionally low level of participation of female and ethic minorities in refereeing, especially at top levels, and therefore positive action is absolutely allowed and appropriate. Something like a female only refereeing course, female or ethnic minority development groups, would be examples of reasonable and allowable positive action. As someone involved in recruitment activities I have to do training on this and pass an exam, so something I am familiar in.
Please remember that if you accuse an individual or organisation of positive discrimination you are accusing them of breaking the law. Unless you can prove this it leaves you at risk of being pursued for libel, not a risk I would take personally. A few years ago, but a different refereeing forum were served notice by PGMOL lawyers and forced to provide the actual names of members, just because you post using a username doesn't protect you if you cross the line (which is the same as for Twitter, Instagram, Discord, etc).
It is a long document, so to call out the key thing, organisations are allowed to use positive actions if they consider and document a number of items, the first one of which is ...
There can be absolutely zero doubt that there is a disproportionally low level of participation of female and ethic minorities in refereeing, especially at top levels, and therefore positive action is absolutely allowed and appropriate. Something like a female only refereeing course, female or ethnic minority development groups, would be examples of reasonable and allowable positive action. As someone involved in recruitment activities I have to do training on this and pass an exam, so something I am familiar in.
Please remember that if you accuse an individual or organisation of positive discrimination you are accusing them of breaking the law. Unless you can prove this it leaves you at risk of being pursued for libel, not a risk I would take personally. A few years ago, but a different refereeing forum were served notice by PGMOL lawyers and forced to provide the actual names of members, just because you post using a username doesn't protect you if you cross the line (which is the same as for Twitter, Instagram, Discord, etc).
Kes
I'll Decide ...
What benefits?
I have no issue with fast tracking, providing the ex players are at the required level needed.
The way I see it is if a player breaks through at 18 and is good enough then they’ll play first team level, same for referees for me. If they’re good enough/have the LOTG knowledge then I have no issue with it.
The way I see it is if a player breaks through at 18 and is good enough then they’ll play first team level, same for referees for me. If they’re good enough/have the LOTG knowledge then I have no issue with it.
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Agree totally. If they are not good enough they will soon be found out!
And when anyone is fast-tracked, whether it be because they're an ex-player or in a minority group, the moment they have a poor game, the seductive argument 'that they're only there because of privilege' prevails. Those less privileged who missed out because of disadvantage become envious and envy is one of the least healthy emotions out there. Jealousy mixed with irritation.
The more I think about it, the more I'm against any form of discrimination, even if the intent is good. I want the world to be a better place, a fairer place with equal opportunity, but shortcuts are not the answer
It takes too long to get to the top. There are too many levels and not enough vertical movement (up and down) between the levels. Escaping Level 4 is a huge bottleneck. It should take no more than 3 years to identify potential, 5 years to realize that potential and 7 years to be competing for levels the ref has shown ability to reach. There's very little movement in and out of SG1/SG2, likely due to employment law. I don't know how that can be solved. It seems like a job for life from the outside
The more I think about it, the more I'm against any form of discrimination, even if the intent is good. I want the world to be a better place, a fairer place with equal opportunity, but shortcuts are not the answer
It takes too long to get to the top. There are too many levels and not enough vertical movement (up and down) between the levels. Escaping Level 4 is a huge bottleneck. It should take no more than 3 years to identify potential, 5 years to realize that potential and 7 years to be competing for levels the ref has shown ability to reach. There's very little movement in and out of SG1/SG2, likely due to employment law. I don't know how that can be solved. It seems like a job for life from the outside
Very few but I take your point.