AR signalling for a sub during quick attacking throw in

#1
AR put me in a tricky spot tonight.
No warning signal that a sub was coming. Ball goes out 25 metres from goal. Attackers go to take quick throw in. AR flags for a sub as throw is launched.
I double beep to stop play and allow sub. Messy.

I explain to attacking captain next to me that I decided to stop play for the sub - before blowing the whistle. He bought that.

But where do you stand on this - I've been told by refs before not to rash signal a sub during a quick throw - what's your take?
 

RustyRef

Moderator
Staff member
#2
There should be eye contact, assuming no comms, before the signal is made. It shouldn't be coming as a surprise.

Once he's signalled though you have no choice but to stop play. If you played on and the ball broke down his touchline he would be hopelessly out of position to rule on offside. Not worth taking that risk, and better a retaken throw in than a potential goal that shouldn't have been or a no goal that should have been.
 

PP62

Well-Known Member
#4
If a team want to make a substitution you surely have to allow them. The manager would probably have asked AR "next time it's out liner" so AR is expecting it. I can't see any option to communicate this with the referee other than the flag when the ball goes out of play. Your AR didn't put you in a tricky spot Santa, he was doing his job.
 
#5
I'm inclined to agree - after all, what if they're trying to take off their injured central defender?
But I don't know about holding up play if you haven't heard/seen the sub request until as play is restarting....I think at that point, it's okay to wait until the next stoppage.
AR shoudn't have flagged as it's being launched - AR needed to flag sooner. If he only got the shout just then, then it's too late and it needs to be the next stoppage.
But if you've got a game with limited substitutions, then you should be telling the managers that you want the player at halfway and ready to go before requesting a sub. Of course that doesn't completely eliminate these problems, especially if you're focussed on play on the other side of the field.
 
#6
In this case the AR was right next to the attacker taking the throw in and signaled for the sub as the attacker took the throw. So I stopped play but it was messy.

I am putting this in the pre match now. AR needs to do warning signal/shout and get confirmation before signaling a risky sub during an attacking throw. Otherwise, wait for next time.

This is why we have two ARs, mirror signals flag down sub warnings... And voices. I was AR1 last night. If I can warning signal every sub and get confirmation before the sub plus shout loud enough to remind when the sub is due e.g. After a goal... I expect the same;)

That said my ref was very good and attentive. It's a two way street. As a ref I need to focus on this with AR1 next time.
 
#7
Yeah, I don't think the AR handled that one well. I'd suggest the AR could have prevented the throw themselves if they knew they were going to signal. I think the AR needs to either let you know before the player is starting to take the throw, or next time. Perhaps even a 'sub on next out, Bloodbeard' if I'm in the AR's rough vicinity. As a 4th I'll always advise the AR 'next out' if I know there's a sub ready (unless the AR is down near the goal line, of course)
But if the coach does the first sub shout as the player is ready to throw.....well, for me I think that's a bit too late and he can wait if the throw is being taken.
 

jofusref

RefChat Addict
#8
In this case the AR was right next to the attacker taking the throw in and signaled for the sub as the attacker took the throw. So I stopped play but it was messy.

I am putting this in the pre match now. AR needs to do warning signal/shout and get confirmation before signaling a risky sub during an attacking throw. Otherwise, wait for next time.

This is why we have two ARs, mirror signals flag down sub warnings... And voices. I was AR1 last night. If I can warning signal every sub and get confirmation before the sub plus shout loud enough to remind when the sub is due e.g. After a goal... I expect the same;)

That said my ref was very good and attentive. It's a two way street. As a ref I need to focus on this with AR1 next time.
well spotted a good learning curve put it in your prematch exactly how you want your a r to deal with subs
 
#9
I know it's irrelevant in games played under the IFAB's Laws of the Game but it's maybe interesting to note in passing that under the US National Federation of High Schools (NFHS) rules, which allow unlimited substitutions, teams are not allowed to substitute on the other team's throw-in (unless the team taking the throw is making a substitution) and as far as I know, this is precisely to avoid it being used as a tactic to interrupt a quick throw-in/potential attacking opportunity.
 

xPositor

RefChat Addict
#10
If a team want to make a substitution you surely have to allow them.
You have to allow the substitution, but when you as the referee are ready for it. There was a debate on here quite some time ago about whether you should allow a team (in a league where unlimited substitutions are allowed, e.g. youth) to make repeated short-notice rapid subsitutions towards an end of a half, where the manager is clearly doing it to interrupt play, rather than to give his team playing time or similar. Not wanting to reopen that debate, but my view is still that the manager can ask, and you allow - but if in this OP's scenario it would interrupt a quick throw-in, then it has to wait. AR1 should be cognisant of that, and its a good idea as @santa sangria mentioned to include that in your pre-match.
 
#11
Where I spent most of my time refereeing, we had strict instructions that only first grade had stoppage time. And almost all grades had unlimited interchange

Something you learn very quickly in that league is how to become very deaf in the final minute of play :)
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#12
Yeah, I had a game with rolling subs where a manager protecting a lead signalled for a sub, got the sub carried out, waited for everyone to get back in position then tried to signal for another sub before the restart. Was furious when I didn't allow it, but I figure only allowing only one "substitution event" per stoppage is fairly reasonable!
 

PP62

Well-Known Member
#13
Yeah, I had a game with rolling subs where a manager protecting a lead signalled for a sub, got the sub carried out, waited for everyone to get back in position then tried to signal for another sub before the restart. Was furious when I didn't allow it, but I figure only allowing only one "substitution event" per stoppage is fairly reasonable!
Totally agree with you here. One "substitution event" can mean several subs at the same time but once he's let you run back into position selective deafness is certainly the way to go and he can be as furious as he likes!