A few things

[QuaverRef]

A few things from yesterday’s game, just wondering how you’d deal with them. Although I do understand, they are more YHTBT moments

- First, a ‘handball goal’. Similar to Boly against City (something I was dreading happening in one of my games). Game at 2-2, Ball gets drilled across the six yard box along the ground. Attacker at the far post slides in, ball skips up off the ground about a yard away from him, hits his hand and subsequently goes in. I gave the goal as I believed it was accidental, he was going to score if it hadn’t had skipped up, just one of those things! However, impossible to persuade the defending team thag

- First indirect free kick in the box for a pass back I’ve ever given. Long ball into the box, keeper screams his name and attempts to claim it and drops the ball. He then shouts ‘keepers!’ again, Defender puts his foot on top of the ball and the keeper picks it up. Although technically no ‘pass’, I felt this this was a pass back as the defender stopped it with his foot for the keeper. YHTBT I assume but another which was a hard sell for the defending team.

- Finally, a missed stamp. Perfectly fine sliding tackle goes in, no arguments from anyone. I progress up the field and look back to see the player who committed the challenging rolling around on the floor holding his ankle. Nobody but him makes an argument about a stamp, until he gets to his feet and tells me to keep an eye. After the game, the other player comes up to me and says ‘I apologise ref, I did stamp on him out of frustration, it was completely out of character’. New one on me, somebody admitting something like that. Is there any punishment I could take at this point? I did nothing as the moment had gone and didn’t think there was .... any advice would be good

 

[Ciley Myrus]

A few things from yesterday’s game, just wondering how you’d deal with them. Although I do understand, they are more YHTBT moments

- First, a ‘handball goal’. Similar to Boly against City (something I was dreading happening in one of my games). Game at 2-2, Ball gets drilled across the six yard box along the ground. Attacker at the far post slides in, ball skips up off the ground about a yard away from him, hits his hand and subsequently goes in. I gave the goal as I believed it was accidental, he was going to score if it hadn’t had skipped up, just one of those things! However, impossible to persuade the defending team thag

- First indirect free kick in the box for a pass back I’ve ever given. Long ball into the box, keeper screams his name and attempts to claim it and drops the ball. He then shouts ‘keepers!’ again, Defender puts his foot on top of the ball and the keeper picks it up. Although technically no ‘pass’, I felt this this was a pass back as the defender stopped it with his foot for the keeper. YHTBT I assume but another which was a hard sell for the defending team.

- Finally, a missed stamp. Perfectly fine sliding tackle goes in, no arguments from anyone. I progress up the field and look back to see the player who committed the challenging rolling around on the floor holding his ankle. Nobody but him makes an argument about a stamp, until he gets to his feet and tells me to keep an eye. After the game, the other player comes up to me and says ‘I apologise ref, I did stamp on him out of frustration, it was completely out of character’. New one on me, somebody admitting something like that. Is there any punishment I could take at this point? I did nothing as the moment had gone and didn’t think there was .... any advice would be good

1> of course if you believed it not to be deliberate you were correct to award the goal, from what you type though, if it was me, am disallowing it, I think!
2> sounds ideal what you did
3> stamps are hard to spot, usually as no back lift is involved and they don't need an outstretched leg, so they are not clear and obvious to see. No, there is nothing you can do on this occasion, I suppose I would thank the player for his honesty and wryly remind him just to be careful in games to come. Diff story if the opponent was taken to hospital with 2 broken legs, there might be merit then in at least reporting what happens post match, but that's extreme.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

1) The position of the attacker's arm could warrant a foul...but that aside, good decision; accidental but beneficial handling isn't a foul. Of course it's going to be a hard sell. Of course, so would disallowing the goal....
2) Correct decision. Playing or making contact with the foot is a kick. This is a clear offence.
3) tough one, can't spot everything and can't always monitor the aftermath. If you had any indication the challenge would be taken the wrong way you could try to keep them both in view as you move upfield, but if it came out of the blue nothing you can do.
Given you didn't see it I wouldn't worry about sending a report in.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Just for the sake of debate I AM struggling to call 'puts his foot on top of the ball' 'a deliberate KICK to the goalkeeper' - so no offence there for me.

 

[QuaverRef]

Just for the sake of debate I AM struggling to call 'puts his foot on top of the ball' 'a deliberate KICK to the goalkeeper' - so no offence there for me.

This is my question really ... Is stopping the ball for your keeper in this way the same as passing it a yard towards him?
If the keeper hadn’t have given the second shout, I would have played on. The fact he made the shout made me believe that the player intended on giving him the ball rather than keeper taking it from him

 

[PinnerPaul]

This is my question really ... Is stopping the ball for your keeper in this way the same as passing it a yard towards him?
If the keeper hadn’t have given the second shout, I would have played on. The fact he made the shout made me believe that the player intended on giving him the ball rather than keeper taking it from him

You can 'give the ball to the keeper' by using your knee, head or chest, but none is a 'deliberate kick' so perfectly legal, as was this IMHO.

 

[JamesL]

You can 'give the ball to the keeper' by using your knee, head or chest, but none is a 'deliberate kick' so perfectly legal, as was this IMHO.

In that case, would you then not consider it a deliberate trick to circumvent the law?
Devils advocate type post from a deliberate pass back camper.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

for me, to kick = to use the foot.

goes back to the old, does a ball move when the player touches it, and the change, to kicks AND moves...from, simply, kicks

given the "pass back" law is "kicked by a team mate" and makes no mention of "moves".... am 100% a IDFK is the correct decision

 

[Big Cat]

In that case, would you then not consider it a deliberate trick to circumvent the law?
Devils advocate type post from a deliberate pass back camper.

Agreed. Circumvention of Law even if that wasn't the intention. Keeper can't take a ball off a teammate in possession

 

[PinnerPaul]

In that case, would you then not consider it a deliberate trick to circumvent the law?
Devils advocate type post from a deliberate pass back camper.

Thought someone would come up with that one! A 'trick' to me is something 'unnatural' ie lying on the floor to head the ball back. Placing your foot on the ball is no more unnatural to chesting the ball to GK. See where you're coming from, but placing your foot on the ball a 'trick'? - not for me.

 

[santa sangria]

Crikey - crazy KMIs!!!

Well done, in the end, really tough decisions, so you did good to remember the incidents and go over them again. FWIW I'm with Cilage...

1/ Football expects no goal at grassroots. It's not the premier league.

2/ IDFK for me (didn't Elleray reply on this once - at least areferee.com had this question and the answer was IDFK...

3/ "Trailing eye"... when the ball is in the air, you don't need to watch the ball yet, you can start moving, but still look back. Even in a 3 this is hard to do. The best refs I have worked with in the toughest games, this is often the last reminder before kick off/HT... use the trailing eye to watch for late tackles. You have to take a chance sometimes, you can't look everywhere, so use with care, like everything. In a 3 it's really important as a ref to use the trailing eye on your diagonal as it's tough for a far side AR to flag a late tackle or see stamp from the other side of the field.

 

[Hoosier Ref]

#1) No idea what the Boly goal looked like but based upon your description could go either way. In our advanced clinics we have gone through some of the "deliberate" videos and discuss considerations. One factor of interest which caused particular debate/discussion was the deliberate act of throwing/sliding yourself in front of a play to block a shot/cross. This was instructed as deliberate (similar to a hockey player throwing themselves on the ice toward the shot). Certainly any contact produced the desired effect. We debated for quite some time (group of 60+ advanced referees) and never did get to 100% agreement. The one that really got the debate going was the elbow below the body whilst sliding making contact with the ball (instructor said this should be HB). I think the rationale could be applied here. Did the player throw their body across the 6 hoping to deflect the ball in? Was arm against body? Even if in a natural position did the arm make them bigger accomplishing the desired deflection? Really tough situation here. I would suggest utilizing the rationale you stated of "he was going to score if it hadn't skipped up...." but it did and he wouldn't have scored had it not been for the hand/arm.

#2) Good resource although USSF stopped publishing it when the LOTG started incorporating some more situations/interpretations. The old advice to referees is a very good read even if some some of the info hasn't been updated.

From the USSF ATR - 12.B.8 Handling by the Goalkeeper of a Ball Kicked or Thrown by a Teammate A goalkeeper commits an indirect free kick violation if he or she makes contact (with his or her hand) with the ball directly following a teammate deliberately kicking the ball or performing a throw-in restart. This includes situations where the initial contact with the ball by the goalkeeper may involve gaining control by some other means, by foot or chest trap, either inside or outside the goalkeeper’s penalty area, but which is then followed directly by handling inside the goalkeeper’s penalty area. Any contact with the goalkeeper’s hands is a violation, not just possession. Also note that, where the prior action is a deliberate kick by a teammate, “kick” is defined as any play of the ball with the foot, including merely placing a foot on the ball to stop its motion.

http://areferee.com/images/2013-14AdvicetoReferees022714.pdf

3) the stamp - These are tough to spot but it is important for you and your AR's to let your eyes linger following a challenge for these type of things and not ball watch (not saying you did) before shifting your (not the trail AR's gaze) upfield for the next challenge. Depending on how delayed the stamp occurred, you may have to rely on your trail AR to spot this. I generally cover this in the pre-game for the older ages/adult games "please help me watch for any extra-curriculars behind the play. If you see something card worthy, flag it and keep the flag up until I see it. If it is not something you think I would have given a card for, fill me in at a stoppage or break so that we can all watch for it. If not card wothy, feel free to say something to the players to let them know you saw it and to knock it off.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Just for the sake of debate I AM struggling to call 'puts his foot on top of the ball' 'a deliberate KICK to the goalkeeper' - so no offence there for me.

P172 of the LOTG covers this:
Kick
The ball is kicked when a player makes contact with the foot and/or the ankle

This is my question really ... Is stopping the ball for your keeper in this way the same as passing it a yard towards him?
If the keeper hadn’t have given the second shout, I would have played on. The fact he made the shout made me believe that the player intended on giving him the ball rather than keeper taking it from him

Yes, exactly the same.
As for the 2nd part - the keeper screamed for it so the defender stopped it then chose to leave the ball for him. This is a very clear backpass, no doubt whatsoever for me!

In that case, would you then not consider it a deliberate trick to circumvent the law?
r.

......what?

Crikey - crazy KMIs!!!

Well done, in the end, really tough decisions, so you did good to remember the incidents and go over them again. FWIW I'm with Cilage...

1/ Football expects no goal at grassroots. It's not the premier league.
.

"Football expects"....no, you're just perpetuating a misapplication and misinterpretation of the law, the old 'accidental but beneficial handball'.

I'd certainly fail a referee who I assessed who gave that reasoning (getting a key match changing decision wrong = autofail)

 

[JamesL]

P172 of the LOTG covers this:
Kick
The ball is kicked when a player makes contact with the foot and/or the ankle



Yes, exactly the same.
As for the 2nd part - the keeper screamed for it so the defender stopped it then chose to leave the ball for him. This is a very clear backpass, no doubt whatsoever for me!

......what?


"Football expects"....no, you're just perpetuating a misapplication and misinterpretation of the law, the old 'accidental but beneficial handball'.

I'd certainly fail a referee who I assessed who gave that reasoning (getting a key match changing decision wrong = autofail)

So if you read the whole post you"d see I said I am in the passback camp as per thr definition of a kick.
If you dont see this as a kick then surely its a circumvention of the law... it was only a devils advocate type post.

 

[one]

I liked a couple of the well written responses here even though I didn't completely agree with them.

1. YHTBT. But I am happy with your explaination. The key part for me is the (presumably) unexpected skip a yard out from him.

2. IFK. Captn gave the LOTG definition of a kick which makes your case a kick. But don't get too hung up on the wording as it can't cover every exceptional situation. I have given IFK for one that fits the wording a lot less than yours but IMO definitely was the intent of the law. Defender 1 outside PA kicks it to defender 2 inside PA. Attacker rushes in. Keeper behind defender 2 says to him leave it and then picks it up. (This could cause some discussion here). The only one arguing my decision was the keeper.

3. 100% agree with keeping a trailing eye advice above.

 

[Peter Grove]

In that case, would you then not consider it a deliberate trick to circumvent the law

It's not a circumvention of the law (not even close to meeting the definition) - it's either a deliberate kick to the keeper or it isn't. Since the definition of kicking is as given earlier, making contact with the foot and/or ankle, then stepping on the ball clearly meets the LotG definition of a kick. So the only thing left to decide is whether it was a deliberate use of the foot to get the ball to the keeper.

Circumvention is when the player uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball to the keeper using something other than the foot. Since in this case the player has used the foot, it can't possibly be circumvention.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Thanks all for the clarification. If I'm being picky/desperate I'm clinging to Peter's line - was it a kick TO the goalkeeper, but think I'm going to have to accept the word of the referee(s) and walk away (muttering under my breath a la Sunday League!)

 

[Peter Grove]

Just to clarify a little further - just because stepping on the ball does qualify as a kick according to the law, it still doesn't necessarily mean that every time a player stops the ball with the foot and the keeper comes and picks it up, an offence has occurred. The referee still has to decide whether the player has done this deliberately in order to give the ball to the keeper.

Based on the description in the OP and with all the shouting going on by the keeper, it does sound as if the defender knew exactly what they were doing and was deliberately stepping on the ball so the keeper could get it. However in other cases where the player stops the ball with the foot and the keeper comes up from behind and grabs the ball, and the clear inference is that the team mate was unaware of what the keeper was going to do, I would not be seeing that as an offence.