RefSix

2 significant decisions in gsme.

ladbroke8745

Well-Known Member
#1
I had a game today that was actually, in truth, a good gsme to ref.
Issues I had was at half time, literally, as I blew for it two players had a little argument and had come together. I thought a chat with them before going to their respective teams to have a cool down was better than getting a card out.
I then, 9 minutes into 2nd half, had the home player of the two who had a coming together at half time run 15 yards to join in "defending" his team mate in what was not even a bad foul (just a free kick in my opinion). Called the home player over and carded him. He showed me a bit of dissent (including ignoring me for starters to a point I blew my whistle a few times) and in this league it is a sin bin. So off he went complete with no complaints from anyone. To me, I think I done right, but would you guys have dealt with it at half time before it happened again?

Then with 20 minutes to go the attacker of the away side, now 2-0 down, starts moaning at every time he loses the ball saying he been kicked or fouled in some other way. I ignored him most of the time but on one occasion I told him to stop as he was starting to overstep the boundary.
However with 5 minutes to go he goes down few yards in front of me and complains he was kicked (I saw no one kicking him, just someone besting him to the ball and he falling down). Whilst down he then starts shouting swear words, if not every word it was every other word. A player told him to be quiet and he shouts "****ing **** ****". I am not to sure if aimed at him or not but by now it was confirmed in my head that it was a sending off offence. Regardless of location normally, we were next to a playground with plenty of kids about with him shouting. He went off injured, but still showed the red.
His dad was furious and shouted, which ignored but had heard, he wants to speak with me after the game. End of game came and he came to me. I realised it wasn't the coach who asked and said I am not going to discuss anything. He then swore at me. I walked away before I could get into an argument with him myself.
Would you have taken leniency with the injured player for his outbursts of swearing or did I do right?
 

WilliamD

Well-Known Member
#2
Yeesh - third post tonight with offinabus.

This seems like a case of you had to be there. The law is offensive, abusive or insulting language or gesture. You clearly felt like this was offensive given the surrounding. For me I would be thinking about where the language was aimed - is he swearing because he’s got a knock or is he swearing at someone. If he’s swearing/abusing a teammate or opponent you are 100% right. If it’s just to himself you could still be right but I’m not sure I would do it (TBF I don’t do youth games though).
 

ladbroke8745

Well-Known Member
#3
It was an u17 game but still makes youth I know but I don't treat the game as a youth one.
The timing of his comments to me felt it could have been aimed. True it could be because he was hurt but it got to a point it was excessive.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#4
Your first paragraph is actually the best argument for the sin bin I've yet heard! Really smart use of the fact you can get him off the pitch for his dissenting attitude, but without making yourself look like an overly-officious ****er like a double yellow would have done. I might be a convert!

Second paragraph is, as William said above, a "you had to be there" moment. I'm fairly relaxed with swearing and would have no problem letting it go if it's in frustration at himself, as a pained reaction to injury, or even if it's just in the course of issuing instructions to teammates. It's the "Abusive" aspect of OFFINABUS that makes a difference to me, and it's usually fairly easy to tell if it's aimed at someone and needs to be dealt with.

I do think you raise an interesting point about proximity to the playground though. I don't think I would have taken that into account, but I don't know if we are expected to do so or not?
 
#6
1) No issues with carding the 3rd player in, depends if he did actually do anything to inflame it or not. When you say 'would you have dealt with it at half time' - dealt with what? You deal with it at the time. No sense giving him a lecture later before he comes on, you're just likely to inflame him

2)Red sounds fair. I'm going to ask whether you think you could have stamped on his persistent, low-level dissent a bit harder earlier. Even appealing for absolutely everything can constitute low-level dissent. You did warn him though - his problem. Once he started swearing perhaps a blast of your whistle may have shut him up before he got himself into too much trouble.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#7
The surroundings are a very intersting point.
On a public park, as referee, you are responsible for dealing with behaviour of players. I am aware of cases say, where houses are next to the pitch, and residents have reported referees for not dealing with offensive or swear words and so on. Is it right that a couple enjoying a earl grey and scone in their newly patioed back garden have to listen to 90 mins of. Feck off ya cnut and every other line known to man?
What happens next is the residents raise issue with the facility, the facility then raise it with the league, who then raise it with the ref association, who in turn ask YOU if you and why you, permitted foul and abusive language on the park.
Some public footy pitches are in public parks, where indeed families can be strolling by.
My take, if there is kids playground and its clear its part of the environment would be the sternest warning possible then indeed red cards after that, the tantrums of some players would be frowned upon without a game in progress, the fact there is a game and you are in charge of it means you must be seen to do something about it
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#8
The surroundings are a very intersting point.
On a public park, as referee, you are responsible for dealing with behaviour of players. I am aware of cases say, where houses are next to the pitch, and residents have reported referees for not dealing with offensive or swear words and so on. Is it right that a couple enjoying a earl grey and scone in their newly patioed back garden have to listen to 90 mins of. Feck off ya cnut and every other line known to man?
What happens next is the residents raise issue with the facility, the facility then raise it with the league, who then raise it with the ref association, who in turn ask YOU if you and why you, permitted foul and abusive language on the park.
Some public footy pitches are in public parks, where indeed families can be strolling by.
My take, if there is kids playground and its clear its part of the environment would be the sternest warning possible then indeed red cards after that, the tantrums of some players would be frowned upon without a game in progress, the fact there is a game and you are in charge of it means you must be seen to do something about it
While in general I do agree with you, I think the answer to this is a fairly straightforward "the laws don't require me to punish foul language any more and I didn't consider it to be abusive".
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#9
Using "foul and abusive language" is not necessarily an offense that you can take action on.

Could be classed as dissent (players don't swear please we've got children around) if they do it continually

Could be OFFINABUS if it's directed at someone.

At a push it could also be showing a lack of respect for the game.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#10
Oh am not saying I agree with it, am just saying there has been plenty cases I am aware of (from different locations) where residents or other users of a facility have made complaints about the ok, lets call it, industrial language being used, and there has been questions asked of the referee..
I think (very extreme but for purpose of covering eventualities, should a resident produce recording/footage of loud examples of, the usual list of c words, f words and so on....) it would be clutching at straws as a referee to deem it acceptable practise on a football park.....it would be an interesting test case to see if the c word, f word used over and over again loudly, is not universally deemed as abusive or offensive.
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#11
Oh am not saying I agree with it, am just saying there has been plenty cases I am aware of (from different locations) where residents or other users of a facility have made complaints about the ok, lets call it, industrial language being used, and there has been questions asked of the referee..
I think (very extreme but for purpose of covering eventualities, should a resident produce recording/footage of loud examples of, the usual list of c words, f words and so on....) it would be clutching at straws as a referee to deem it acceptable practise on a football park.....it would be an interesting test case to see if the c word, f word used over and over again loudly, is not universally deemed as abusive or offensive.
In reality how i'd manage it is first time it happens i'm giving the player a "can you please do us a favour and keep the language down a bit please" assuming its at a significant volume. Second time, he gets the public warning with the captain and the third time i'm doing him for dissent (on the basis that i've asked him not to do it and by continuing he's committing the offence of dissent).
 

Tino Best

RefChat Addict
#12
Great decision to red card. Follow your gut. I allow industrial language from 14s and upwards but you gave a red and you were there so good for you.
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#13
While in general I do agree with you, I think the answer to this is a fairly straightforward "the laws don't require me to punish foul language any more and I didn't consider it to be abusive".
But isn't the foul language OFFENSIVE language to some people, and Law 12 does not say "in the opinion of the referee (ITOOTR)". It says

A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:
.....
• using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures


So back to @Ciley Myrus point - foul language near playing areas for kids is a RC offence !
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#14
But who decides what is offensive? Where do you draw the line? Just because its swearing it doesn't mean its offensive, likewise just because its not swearing it doesn't mean it isn't offensive.

I know people who find the word S**T offensive, I also know people who think nothing of using C**T in general day to day use.

Also relating to the environment - what if the kids play area is empty? Or if the only people in there are a group of teenagers who are also swearing quite loudly? What happens if its throwing it down in the first half and no-one in the park and you don't deal with a player swearing loudly out of frustration, then the sun comes out and the park is full in the second half and another player does the same.

Therein lies the beauty of this game as a referee, there are certain elements that are completely binary but many that are in between where it relies on the interpretation of the referee.
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#15
But who decides what is offensive? Where do you draw the line? Just because its swearing it doesn't mean its offensive, likewise just because its not swearing it doesn't mean it isn't offensive.

I know people who find the word S**T offensive, I also know people who think nothing of using C**T in general day to day use.

Also relating to the environment - what if the kids play area is empty? Or if the only people in there are a group of teenagers who are also swearing quite loudly? What happens if its throwing it down in the first half and no-one in the park and you don't deal with a player swearing loudly out of frustration, then the sun comes out and the park is full in the second half and another player does the same.

Therein lies the beauty of this game as a referee, there are certain elements that are completely binary but many that are in between where it relies on the interpretation of the referee.
And that is why to cannot simply ignore it. Too many variables for a definitive list, so you need to be aware and manage the match.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#17
I went off topic a bit sorry. I find it an interesting one because I know of it happening. Can of worms. Any official discussion I been involved with boiled down to the same bottom line. It was the referees who got it tight for allowing the lets say, industrial language. If the workmen were doing it next to the residents garden, the resident would be within rights to approach the men or gaffer and ask them to moderate their language. Just because a sport is in progress at the bottom of the garden, does not excuse this behaviour
 

Mintyref

RefChat Addict
#18
There's "industrial language" which may not be offensive to anyone until it starts to have some direction. Example: "that was f**king crap Billy" is very different to "You're f**king crap ref"..
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#19
But isn't the foul language OFFENSIVE language to some people, and Law 12 does not say "in the opinion of the referee (ITOOTR)". It says

A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:
.....
• using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures


So back to @Ciley Myrus point - foul language near playing areas for kids is a RC offence !
Hmmm not sure I quite follow this. Is it not covered by law 5:

Decisions will be made to the best of the referee`s ability according to the Laws
of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the
referee
who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework
of the Laws of the Game.
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#20
And that is why to cannot simply ignore it. Too many variables for a definitive list, so you need to be aware and manage the match.
Hmmm not sure I quite follow this. Is it not covered by law 5:

Decisions will be made to the best of the referee`s ability according to the Laws
of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the
referee
who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework
of the Laws of the Game.
@JamesL - what I was trying to explain is that a number of referees argue that foul language is now not defined in the LOTG Law 12 as a RC offence, which is wrong.

My other reply agrees that Law 5 allows the referee to take discretion on making decisions, which agrees with your view.
 
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