The Ref Stop

Everton v Brentford

L

ladbroke8745

RefChat Addict
Norgaard sending off.
Without looking at still as we all know stills don't tell the whole story..
Is it really worthy of a red card?
A we really saying to players to not attempt to go for a goal anymore?
Seems like the ex pros on MOTD think it's ridiculous.

Around 1:21 I think.

 
The Ref Stop
FirsFox40 said:
Was that the challenge on Palmer? Red for me, that.
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Yet was given as a yellow and not looked at for upgrade (sorry, was looked at, they apparently all are, but thought nothing of it) to red.

The Brentford midfielder went to try and divert the ball goalwards with no player in his line until Pickford turns. The midfielder is already commited to try and score. There is nothing in that, for me, that screams serious foul play and that the referee got that incredibly wrong for it to be reviewed.
It is, for me, a natural play and a natural collision.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
There is nothing in that, for me, that screams serious foul play and that the referee got that incredibly wrong for it to be reviewed.
It is, for me, a natural play and a natural collision.
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Catching a player knee height with the full face of the studs showing is not what I'd consider a "natural collision". It's a dangerous challenge and easily meets the criteria for SFP.
 
The argument from the ex-pros as to why it isn't a red is that it was accidental and he was going for the ball. Both of those statements are true, but as referees we should know that it being accidental and an attempt to get the ball has pretty much zero relevance. Did it use excessive force and / or endanger the safety of an opponent? It clearly did both, he's lunged at speed with a straight leg and caught Pickford full on the knee.

I do think it will get overturned on appeal, because the ex-pros and ex-managers will probably hold the same views as the likes of Shearer, i.e. it was accidental and he had eyes on the ball. But that would just further prove the argument that it is lunacy having people with no qualifications in the laws making rulings on laws already applied by qualified referees.
 
RustyRef said:
The argument from the ex-pros as to why it isn't a red is that it was accidental and he was going for the ball. Both of those statements are true, but as referees we should know that it being accidental and an attempt to get the ball has pretty much zero relevance. Did it use excessive force and / or endanger the safety of an opponent? It clearly did both, he's lunged at speed with a straight leg and caught Pickford full on the knee.

I do think it will get overturned on appeal, because the ex-pros and ex-managers will probably hold the same views as the likes of Shearer, i.e. it was accidental and he had eyes on the ball. But that would just further prove the argument that it is lunacy having people with no qualifications in the laws making rulings on laws already applied by qualified referees.
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If it were at speed, which I don't think it was, then Pickford would have sustained much more of an injury than just a scratch.
Excessive force? He is literally stretching to get on the end of a cross that the forward missed. It happens in every game.
Literally.
Only difference is Pickford made a meal of it as he always does and pointed to the scratch.

Unfortunately players go down and stay down so much these days to con refs for "injuries" that you now can't tell if a player is genuinely injured.
I'm not saying no contact was made, but I don't think the contact made was anything near what Pickford made out. And I'm going to be honest here, I don't think VAR gets involved if he didn't have that sulk and points to his shin (with child size shin pads by the way).
 
ladbroke8745 said:
If it were at speed, which I don't think it was, then Pickford would have sustained much more of an injury than just a scratch.
Excessive force? He is literally stretching to get on the end of a cross that the forward missed. It happens in every game.
Literally.
Only difference is Pickford made a meal of it as he always does and pointed to the scratch.

Unfortunately players go down and stay down so much these days to con refs for "injuries" that you now can't tell if a player is genuinely injured.
I'm not saying no contact was made, but I don't think the contact made was anything near what Pickford made out. And I'm going to be honest here, I don't think VAR gets involved if he didn't have that sulk and points to his shin (with child size shin pads by the way).
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With respect, I think you might be looking at this with slightly red & white tined glasses. I don't think many referees will say that this wasn't a red card, it seems to just be largely ex-pros. Neutral journalists seem to agree with it being red, for example I've just listened to Max Rushden and Barry Glendenning and they both think it was a nailed on red card.
 
RustyRef said:
With respect, I think you might be looking at this with slightly red & white tined glasses. I don't think many referees will say that this wasn't a red card, it seems to just be largely ex-pros. Neutral journalists seem to agree with it being red, for example I've just listened to Max Rushden and Barry Glendenning and they both think it was a nailed on red card.
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I'm definitely not looking at this from any other angle than as a ref.
I'll quite happily watch every game these days with plenty of red cards when players are going to try and score a goal in the future.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
I'm definitely not looking at this from any other angle than as a ref.
I'll quite happily watch every game these days with plenty of red cards when players are going to try and score a goal in the future.
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There's the counter argument though that when Pickford fouled, and badly injured, Van Dijk everyone thought it was a red card, but he was just trying to stop a goal.
 
When I saw it first I thought the red was harsh but after looking at it a few times I think the Brentford player has the opportunity to attempt to lower his leg once he’s nowhere near the ball. He doesn’t and it kinda just hangs there, dangerously. I’m still not 100% convinced but I can see why it was given and if it wasn’t I could see why too, a subjective decision that I think could be argued either way.

The Pickford comments in this chain are irrelevant and i agree with the other poster that they seem motivated from another angle or personal opinion of a particular player.

It would take a very long time to analyse *ALL* premier league players and their negative and laughably disgusting “antics” and I doubt any of the match officials involved in the Brentford sending off decision paid any attention to Pickford reactions just as I’m sure they wouldn’t be influenced by certain players who love to fall to the ground.

Ste
 
If Referees identified the incident outside of the PL/without VAR in the same way as the Referee saw on VAR, then I think the vast majority would give a red card. Although I definitely accept the comments of the forwards union of Messrs Lineaker & Shearer that the Brentford striker had to make an attempt to play the ball for a potential goal & there was no intent malicious or otherwise for him to hurt Pickford, as has been mentioned, the plain fact is that he made no contact with the ball & if it wasn’t for Pickford knowing what was about the happen from riding the challenge from the forwards extended leg, I have no doubt it would have been a more serious injury. There is potential for it to be thrown out by the KMI Panel, but I hope they confirm it.
 
A lot worse this weekend not given as reds, The Chelsea game and Lallana. Also Pickford's assault on VVD was a lot worse a few seasons ago
 
RustyRef said:
With respect, I think you might be looking at this with slightly red & white tined glasses. I don't think many referees will say that this wasn't a red card, it seems to just be largely ex-pros. Neutral journalists seem to agree with it being red, for example I've just listened to Max Rushden and Barry Glendenning and they both think it was a nailed on red card.
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And neutral journalists (not many of them) are better qualified in the laws than ex-pros?

The clip above doesn't tell much - it's more obvious on this:
www.skysports.com

'Nasty one!' | Red for Christian Norgaard as VAR spots for knee-high challenge on Jordan Pickford

Christian Norgaard was shown a red card at Goodison Park after his attempted lunge ended up catching Everton goalkeeper Jordan Pickford below his knee, which was subsequently spotted by VAR.
www.skysports.com www.skysports.com
 
If you have referees making onfield decisions and in the VAR booth, then have ex-pros/managers on the appeals panel, there will always different views on these decisions.

Outside of England, this is a red card every day of the week. If the same challenge happened in the CL tonight, red card. But England still has an element of the old school mentality that we allow a more physical game. Which in reality, that is long gone.

I imagine there would have been plenty of outcry had the initial decision not been given as red

My main gripe is that the appeals panel are kept anonymous. No reason for this to be done.
 
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