A&H

Referee Losing Match Control

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AmitM

New Member
Level 6 Referee
Hi All
Had my first open age match yesterday, and was on the line. It was a pre-season match with 2 step 5 teams and the ref who was meant to do it unfortunately got injured in the morning before the game, so we had a L6 in the middle as no replacement L4 could be found. His match control wasn't very good and the game was going downhill with the dissent, and the ref wasn't dealing with it properly (in my opinion!). So, I was wondering if there's anything we can do on the line to try and keep the match control as it was getting very very hard to sell decisions to the players by the end? (The players weren't too bad with me. though. The managers were lovely and knew it was my first OA game and that I'm 16, so made it very clear to the players to keep the abuse to a minimum with me)
Thanks all
 
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AmitM said:
Hi All
Had my first open age match yesterday, and was on the line. It was a pre-season match with 2 step 5 teams and the ref who was meant to do it unfortunately got injured in the morning before the game, so we had a L6 in the middle as no replacement L4 could be found. His match control wasn't very good and the game was going downhill with the dissent, and the ref wasn't dealing with it properly (in my opinion!). So, I was wondering if there's anything we can do on the line to try and keep the match control as it was getting very very hard to sell decisions to the players by the end? (The players weren't too bad with me. though. The managers were lovely and knew it was my first OA game and that I'm 16, so made it very clear to the players to keep the abuse to a minimum with me)
Thanks all
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One approach which needs care but usually works is to invite the referee over during a stoppage and suggest gently that from the sideline the dissent level sounds to be close to a dangerous level.
If the referee accepts, fine, but if not you have been proactive and helpful.
As this was a step up for you, the level of dissent will vary from what you are used to.
 
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The previous reply sounds like good advice, remember that if you hear anything that sounds like dissent you can raise your flag and call the Ref over and advise him of what you've heard and what sanction you think fits the "crime" and how play would restart. The Ref can either accept your advice or ignore it.
I had a very young AR. on with me recently who heard a defender bad mouthing me. He called me over and told me what he'd heard wanted the boy sent off and restart with a penalty kick. I thanked him for his input but I had to correct his restart and the sanction he wanted. I cautioned the player as he didn't actually utter a swear word and restarted with an indirect free kick in the penalty area as this was where he was standing when he uttered "That baldy Ref us giving us nothing".
 
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WeeBlackBook said:
The previous reply sounds like good advice, remember that if you hear anything that sounds like dissent you can raise your flag and call the Ref over and advise him of what you've heard and what sanction you think fits the "crime" and how play would restart. The Ref can either accept your advice or ignore it.
I had a very young AR. on with me recently who heard a defender bad mouthing me. He called me over and told me what he'd heard wanted the boy sent off and restart with a penalty kick. I thanked him for his input but I had to correct his restart and the sanction he wanted. I cautioned the player as he didn't actually utter a swear word and restarted with an indirect free kick in the penalty area as this was where he was standing when he uttered "That baldy Ref us giving us nothing".
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Whilst I don’t for one second think the offender in the above example should be sent off, it is worth noting that the absence of foul language doesn’t mean it can’t be a red.

A player calls me a cheat and they're walking, no foul language involved but I find accusations of cheating extremely offensive. Hence OFFINABUS.
 
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Will_A said:
Whilst I don’t for one second think the offender in the above example should be sent off, it is worth noting that the absence of foul language doesn’t mean it can’t be a red.

A player calls me a cheat and they're walking, no foul language involved but I find accusations of cheating extremely offensive. Hence OFFINABUS.
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And insulting, and abusive.
Plenty of other possible scenarios to where a red card for offinabus could be justified without the need for swear words or gestures.
 
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Thanks for the replies! The issue was more the fact that the referee heard all the dissent, and the players were calling him all sorts of names to his face. One even went "oi ref, you're a c*nt" and he didn't do anything about any of it. He just let the temperature rise to a stage where there was this absolutely horrid excessive force tackle at the end. In those cases is there anything you can do on the line?

One of my ref sec's knew that I had my first OA yesterday and invited me to his game the day before with 2 step 4 teams in a localish derby. I had seen there would be a lot of dissent and foul language, but he dealt with it really well. So I was expecting the dissent, but thought the ref would deal with it in my game
 
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We all have different tolerance levels
Some of us also shirk the correct calls, could be through ignorance, bravery, or simply they dont care

Learning curve is to ensure you dont become these.

sometimes, esp as a newbie on the line,we just need to bite the bullet

sometimes as a vastly experienced official we need to bite the bullet on the line
 
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AmitM said:
Thanks for the replies! The issue was more the fact that the referee heard all the dissent, and the players were calling him all sorts of names to his face. One even went "oi ref, you're a c*nt" and he didn't do anything about any of it. He just let the temperature rise to a stage where there was this absolutely horrid excessive force tackle at the end. In those cases is there anything you can do on the line?

One of my ref sec's knew that I had my first OA yesterday and invited me to his game the day before with 2 step 4 teams in a localish derby. I had seen there would be a lot of dissent and foul language, but he dealt with it really well. So I was expecting the dissent, but thought the ref would deal with it in my game
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How did the ref sec deal really well with the dissent and foul language? Genuinely asking so I can potentially learn something, if you can tell us what he did/said to players?
 
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Players at that level can be smart, and can smell weakness. If they see one player getting away with dissent or even OFFINABUS they will all start and it will quickly get out of control.

All you can really do on the line is give him signals to up his involvement, typically palm up and raising your hand when he is looking at you, but a L6 probably won’t realise what you are doing.
 
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wazztie16 said:
How did the ref sec deal really well with the dissent and foul language? Genuinely asking so I can potentially learn something, if you can tell us what he did/said to players?
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He basically kept talking and communicating the whole way through the game and just building rapport with them. He also dealt with all the low level dissent in the first 10 minutes and picked up on every time any of the players had an issue with his decisions at the start. The first time there was any dissent that lasted more than about 2 seconds, he got the captain involved and made it very clear that this was the players' last chance and the next time would be a caution. He then kept his word the next time a player from that team had a go at him, he cautioned him, and I think that sent a clear message to the other players on the pitch as there was no dissent afterwards that went past the usual "come on ref!".
 
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AmitM said:
Thanks for the replies! The issue was more the fact that the referee heard all the dissent, and the players were calling him all sorts of names to his face. One even went "oi ref, you're a c*nt" and he didn't do anything about any of it. He just let the temperature rise to a stage where there was this absolutely horrid excessive force tackle at the end. In those cases is there anything you can do on the line?

One of my ref sec's knew that I had my first OA yesterday and invited me to his game the day before with 2 step 4 teams in a localish derby. I had seen there would be a lot of dissent and foul language, but he dealt with it really well. So I was expecting the dissent, but thought the ref would deal with it in my game
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When a ref realizes he’s out of his depth, it can be paralyzing. Not having cautioned a prior player can make the R feel like it wouldn’t be fair to caution the next player, and the spiral goes on. Very difficult for an AR to help--especiall If the AR. Isn’t senior to the R in a way that the AR can be acting as a mentor in the moment. The R has to solve himself—and typically the only solve, which is itself imperfect, is to lower the foul threshold as well as the dissent threshold, and slow the game down.

(I was there,once, though lucky it didn’t become a dissent-fest. I was 14, and hadn’t yet played 16U, when my Dad accepted a 16U game for me in a two-whistle game. I realizes 5 or 10 minutes in that I really didn’t understand what a foul was at that level. One of the most unl,wasn’t feelings of my life, as I knew I was awful and had no idea what I could do to fix it.)
 
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A bit of a different angle on this. I don't like the term "referee losing control of the match". It blames the referee for misbehaving players. You can loose control of machinery or animals and to some extent children. But adults should not have to be controlled. I'd rather refer to it as players losing control of their behaviour.
 
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As per above there is not a lot that can be done by the AR. Getting out of a situation like this once you are there is very difficult for the most skilled and experienced referees. If a referee needs and AR to help him out of it in a running game, I don't see it happening.

I can though advise what NOT to do. Don't give out any impression whatsoever that what he will do in terms of game management is based on what you have told him to do. This would very likely put him in deeper sh!t than he is already in. "Who's running this game ref" etc. Half time may be a good time to have a chat (if it had started before it).
 
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socal lurker said:
When a ref realizes he’s out of his depth, it can be paralyzing. Not having cautioned a prior player can make the R feel like it wouldn’t be fair to caution the next player, and the spiral goes on. Very difficult for an AR to help--especiall If the AR. Isn’t senior to the R in a way that the AR can be acting as a mentor in the moment. The R has to solve himself—and typically the only solve, which is itself imperfect, is to lower the foul threshold as well as the dissent threshold, and slow the game down.

(I was there,once, though lucky it didn’t become a dissent-fest. I was 14, and hadn’t yet played 16U, when my Dad accepted a 16U game for me in a two-whistle game. I realizes 5 or 10 minutes in that I really didn’t understand what a foul was at that level. One of the most unl,wasn’t feelings of my life, as I knew I was awful and had no idea what I could do to fix it.)
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I had a game once where I was struggling a little bit to deal with dissent - from my perspective they were all taking it in turns to have low-level digs and I was struggling to identify anything that really crossed the line. The AR flagged me over and said "Number 10 White has just said [......] and I recommend a sin bin for dissent".

Was what he said much worse than anything else? Maybe, probably not to the extent that I would have sin binned for it alone given the context of what I had let go already. But I was aware of a need to do something about it and specifically pointing out a player and a comment that I could take action on was exactly what I needed in that moment. And it helped me reset on what was and wasn't acceptable - to the extent I had another sin bin later in the same game for another very similar comment.

As AR you can always offer advice if you think you've seen something actionable. Calling the ref over to go "ooh, you're having a rough one here" is bad AR-ing - but if you have something specific you think needs dealing with, that's what you're there for.
 
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one said:
A bit of a different angle on this. I don't like the term "referee losing control of the match". It blames the referee for misbehaving players. You can loose control of machinery or animals and to some extent children. But adults should not have to be controlled. I'd rather refer to it as players losing control of their behaviour.
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Don't really agree with that, apart from it is caused by misbehaving players. Before the game starts you have full control, assuming you haven't someone managed to annoy the teams or players before then. If players then misbehave and you don't deal with it you risk losing that control, whereas if you do deal with it you have at least got a chance of keeping control.

Control is absolutely a referee's to lose. It isn't blaming the referee for the behaviour of the players, it is blaming the referee for not reacting to the behaviour of the players. They are very different things.
 
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RustyRef said:
Don't really agree with that, apart from it is caused by misbehaving players. Before the game starts you have full control, assuming you haven't someone managed to annoy the teams or players before then. If players then misbehave and you don't deal with it you risk losing that control, whereas if you do deal with it you have at least got a chance of keeping control.

Control is absolutely a referee's to lose. It isn't blaming the referee for the behaviour of the players, it is blaming the referee for not reacting to the behaviour of the players. They are very different things.
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Agree. There are games that are out of control through no fault of the ref. And there are games where a ref could have kept in control with a better approach. The point of identifying the latter group is not to blame the R or let the players off the hook, but to learn from it and think about what tools might be effective in a future match. If we just shrug and blame the players, we lose the opportunity to improve. (I know I have had games where my choices have helped things escalate and I know I have had games where my choices helped things not escalate when they had the potential to do explode.)
 
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socal lurker said:
Agree. There are games that are out of control through no fault of the ref. And there are games where a ref could have kept in control with a better approach. The point of identifying the latter group is not to blame the R or let the players off the hook, but to learn from it and think about what tools might be effective in a future match. If we just shrug and blame the players, we lose the opportunity to improve. (I know I have had games where my choices have helped things escalate and I know I have had games where my choices helped things not escalate when they had the potential to do explode.)
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Afree fully. As an observer if I see a referee do, or not do, something that risks his match control what I write down in the report depends on how the game plays out. If it doesn't actually affect the game then it will probably be minor advice, but if it did cause a problem then it is likely to be mark affecting. The classic example would be dissent, not ignoring it sometimes doesn't cause a major issue, but sometimes it causes a total and utter lack of control.
 
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RustyRef said:
Control is absolutely a referee's to lose. It isn't blaming the referee for the behaviour of the players, it is blaming the referee for not reacting to the behaviour of the players. They are very different things.
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But then by inference, it insinuates they misbehaved because the referee didn't react the follow up player bahviour (which is the defines 'loss of control') and that is justified. Absolutely not.
Games get out of control due to player misbehaviour, there can be no other reason for it. Referees may be able to prevent it by better game/player management but are not the cause of loss of control.

Let me give an example. A reckless challenge goes unpunished by the referee. This is bad/shortcoming by the referee. He should have cautioned it. Revenge tackle a couple of minutes later breaks an ankle (and further afters). This is not the referee's fault or he is not to blame here. The sole person to blame here is the adult who consciously made the decision to hurt his opponent. Yes, a better referee decision earlier could have prevented this but the referee hasn't caused this. Saying the referee has lost control insinuates the referee is the problem here in all the contexts I have heard it in, used by players and many referees. Now if that is not how you see it then fair enough but I see this terms as one amongst many others in the culture of "blame the referee for everything".
 
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one said:
But then by inference, it insinuates they misbehaved because the referee didn't react the follow up player bahviour (which is the defines 'loss of control') and that is justified. Absolutely not.
Games get out of control due to player misbehaviour, there can be no other reason for it. Referees may be able to prevent it by better game/player management but are not the cause of loss of control.

Let me give an example. A reckless challenge goes unpunished by the referee. This is bad/shortcoming by the referee. He should have cautioned it. Revenge tackle a couple of minutes later breaks an ankle (and further afters). This is not the referee's fault or he is not to blame here. The sole person to blame here is the adult who consciously made the decision to hurt his opponent. Yes, a better referee decision earlier could have prevented this but the referee hasn't caused this. Saying the referee has lost control insinuates the referee is the problem here in all the contexts I have heard it in, used by players and many referees. Now if that is not how you see it then fair enough but I see this terms as one amongst many others in the culture of "blame the referee for everything".
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The referee is entrusted though to deal with the first tackle properly, and has the tools to do so
That is why we are there, rather than nobody
If we dont deal with the first tackle properly, then whilst it is on the opponent who takes revenge, the revenge is due to us not carrying out our entrusted role in the first place
Whilst clearly we dont two foot the guy, its our action, or lack of, which is the catalyst

cannot absolve the referee from blame if the referee has clearly negated their duty
to do so, renders the referee pointless in the first place

we see on here plenty, prevention, safe refereeing. No, we cannot account for all acts but we can certainly point the players in the right direction
its our role to punish misconduct.
if we dont, then absolutely there is a risk the players will assume the control which we lack. Basic refereeing dictates we remain in control. Carding the first tackle is us doing our role. If we dont, it is us who have opened the door to revenge,

Take the card and the guy takes own revenge, ref in clear
Dont take card and player takes own revenge, questions are asked
 
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I've had an incident before where I've booked a player for a bad tackle and he's been clattered in revenge 30 seconds later regardless.

I'm far more in @one 's camp on this - players are just going to lose control or do stupid things sometimes. Maybe we can occasionally tilt the scales or get through to a player while the red mist is in the process of coming down, but they're grown adults with access to the LOTG if they want - they're responsible for their own actions.
 
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