A&H

Hawk-Eye

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
For those who don't think it's possible to immanently automate offside, think again
Sony have been very bullish at recent trade-fairs about how their AI will 'revolutionise' the spectator experience, with applications far beyond that of VAR

 
The Referee Store
This post was not so much about VAR BTW
Sony are promising such things as streaming the game from the GK's perspective (or wherever)(near real-time). And it sounds like they're not far off it
I'm quite happy to just watch the game from my barstool, but each to their own. Young folk & their phones. Inseparable, So they'll probably love it
 
This post was not so much about VAR BTW
Sony are promising such things as streaming the game from the GK's perspective (or wherever)(near real-time). And it sounds like they're not far off it
I'm quite happy to just watch the game from my barstool, but each to their own. Young folk & their phones. Inseparable, So they'll probably love it
Sounds a bit like the old player cam on red button back when there was only one sky sports channel. Wonder why that's not a thing now?
 
Sounds a bit like the old player cam on red button back when there was only one sky sports channel. Wonder why that's not a thing now?
I can't remember the player camera. Hope there was no audio
 
Seems almost certain we will have an automatic offside in the top level in the near future. Can't imagine it's gonna help develope high quality ARs down the pyramid when your job at the elite level doesn't matter.
 
Not a surprise technology moves fast.

Saw a presentation before WC2018 and hawkeye guy said the margin of error could be over a foot using the faux 3D technology, prior to that the 2D lines could have a margin of error of over a yard...

They stopped the player camera as it wasn't popular enough to justify the expense
 
Seems almost certain we will have an automatic offside in the top level in the near future. Can't imagine it's gonna help develope high quality ARs down the pyramid when your job at the elite level doesn't matter.

No on field officials at all.

AR has long outstayed its welcome as it is

In 2012, I said by 2022 WC, slightly ambitious, but certainly possible for the next one
 
For those who don't think it's possible to immanently automate offside, think again
Sony have been very bullish at recent trade-fairs about how their AI will 'revolutionise' the spectator experience, with applications far beyond that of VAR.
According to that article, the technology at best, could determine offside position.

The very first line of Law 11 says that it's not an offence to be in an offside position.

So determining offside position is a start, but it is by no means sufficient to fully automate making offside decisions.
 
According to that article, the technology at best, could determine offside position.

The very first line of Law 11 says that it's not an offence to be in an offside position.

So determining offside position is a start, but it is by no means sufficient to fully automate making offside decisions.
Exactly. I get lay-people thinking that judging position is all there is to it, but we should be better than that on here.

I don't know if this is the "semi-automated" offside that is going to be used at Qatar 2022 or something else proposing a step further on? But if it's the former, we need to be realistic about the scope and limitations of the technology - which that article mostly made up of Sony marketing quotes is not.

And if it's the latter, we need to accept that the semi-auto system will come first. Qatar this season, use in the PL from 2023-24 onwards for at least a few seasons - we're talking late 2020's before any "next step" technology can possibly be implemented, purely because you can only use one at a time.
 
According to that article, the technology at best, could determine offside position.

The very first line of Law 11 says that it's not an offence to be in an offside position.

So determining offside position is a start, but it is by no means sufficient to fully automate making offside decisions.
Of course, that's true. But they also boast about programming rules (Laws in this case) into the AI
Although I'm an IP network specialist, I work for a Broadcast Company (we provide all manner of broadcast services to the gaming/gambling industry) and the pace at which this stuff is developing is fairly staggering. VAR might be a good thing for elite referees at this moment in time (career longevity), but I don't think that'll remain the case for very long
 
Last edited:
They could wear little hats with lights on. No light = in own half (presumably defending team), green light = not in an offside potion, red light = currently in an offside decision. Lino can then call em if they play the ball / interfere etc.

Vote Max FIFA President 2028.
 
AI is good and is getting better all the time, and will easily be able to judge the offside position. It is however a million miles away from being able to judge if an offside player is interfering with play, an opponent or gaining an advantage. It is only as good as the humands that program it, and let's face it there have been some strange offside decisions made by said humans, including those using VAR to check and check again.
 
So I'll come clean. The catalyst for me to be thinking about this subject, is horse racing. I've long since been perplexed as to why the outcome of photo finishes is difficult to predict. Indeed the challenges of identifying which horse has won is a function of the broadcast camera being out of line with the focal plane of the winning line
VAR faces the exact same challenge. If the cameras merely needed to identify the location of the feet on the two dimensions of ground level, the process would be quite straight forward. However, as soon as the location of any other body part is required, it actually becomes hideously difficult.
VAR's attempts to manually draw vertical lines is very crude and flawed IMHO. Indeed, inaccurate attempt to marry virtual offside lines on the vertical axis with an offside line on the ground lacks the precision of the single pixel (now 3 pixel) lines that the final decision relies upon. Using imprecise and very precise methodology simultaneously to determine exactness is absurd. And, one of my major gripes with VAR and offside is the time taken to reach a decision, almost all of which is consumed by the crude vertical drawing of lines

So whilst I think what they've attempted to do hereto has been moronic, the World Cup trial will probably represent a major improvement because the technology promises to identify offside position on a fully automated basis (possibly within half a second)
I personally predict the AI will develop super fast and surpass some people expectations, but that's another discussion

Thing about photo finishes, is you can bet on the outcome in real-time whilst the Judge determines the winner. So I have a vested interest in the subject ;)
 
I just don’t see automated AR working anytime soon.

It’s not just a matter of programming the AI to be able to keep track of every player on the pitch along with the ball whilst also judging the exact location a player is when the ball is played, whether they are in an offside position and whether they have committed an offence by gaining an advantage from being in an offside position.

And that’s without accounting for other things like whether the part of a players body that is offside can legally play the ball, or whether a defending player did something to play the offside player onside.

Even if they can develop a system to do all of that with more accuracy than a human with years and years of experience the cost would be prohibitively expensive.

HawkEye costs somehwere in the region of 500k and it doesn’t do any of that.

I imagine that it will happen, or at least be trialed, but I don’t see it in full usage for a long time.
 
I can't remember the player camera. Hope there was no audio

There wasn't. Many years ago you could use the red button to access player cam and watch an individual player. Sounds great but in reality you spend alot of time watching somebody walking around. Fan cam was better. They had a fan from both teams commentating on the game as an alternative to Andy Gray and Martin Tyler etc which you could listen too and watch. These fans tended to be on the more 'passionate side' for entertainment value but theres some classic clips on YouTube no doubt.
 
So I'll come clean. The catalyst for me to be thinking about this subject, is horse racing. I've long since been perplexed as to why the outcome of photo finishes is difficult to predict. Indeed the challenges of identifying which horse has won is a function of the broadcast camera being out of line with the focal plane of the winning line
VAR faces the exact same challenge. If the cameras merely needed to identify the location of the feet on the two dimensions of ground level, the process would be quite straight forward. However, as soon as the location of any other body part is required, it actually becomes hideously difficult.
VAR's attempts to manually draw vertical lines is very crude and flawed IMHO. Indeed, inaccurate attempt to marry virtual offside lines on the vertical axis with an offside line on the ground lacks the precision of the single pixel (now 3 pixel) lines that the final decision relies upon. Using imprecise and very precise methodology simultaneously to determine exactness is absurd. And, one of my major gripes with VAR and offside is the time taken to reach a decision, almost all of which is consumed by the crude vertical drawing of lines

So whilst I think what they've attempted to do hereto has been moronic, the World Cup trial will probably represent a major improvement because the technology promises to identify offside position on a fully automated basis (possibly within half a second)
I personally predict the AI will develop super fast and surpass some people expectations, but that's another discussion

Thing about photo finishes, is you can bet on the outcome in real-time whilst the Judge determines the winner. So I have a vested interest in the subject ;)
Going to have to correct you there, the outcome of photo finishes are not from any 'broadcast' cameras, the result comes form a still image taken by the racecourse camera, THAT's the image the broadcasters show after the result. The freeze frames they show before the official result are just from the broadcast pictures, but they are not the ones the judge uses.
 
Going to have to correct you there, the outcome of photo finishes are not from any 'broadcast' cameras, the result comes form a still image taken by the racecourse camera, THAT's the image the broadcasters show after the result. The freeze frames they show before the official result are just from the broadcast pictures, but they are not the ones the judge uses.
I know that Pinner P!!! Worked in the Gambling Industry for 20 years
What I mean, is that in the time period between the race ending and the Judge announcing the result, you can bet 'in-running' on what the outcome of the photo is gonna be. And we (as punters) only have the Broadcast Camera perspective
See below for an example from today! Winning distance was a head (far side, which is not easy to see)
I'm known as VAJ in the Racing World... Video Assistant Judge ;)

1655656514167.png

Anyway, it's all quite deceptive. The height of the horses nose is quite important when it comes to determining the position in relationship to the winning line. We frequently see offside decisions which simply don't look right. Aston Villa scored an equaliser against Newcastle and it was ruled offside. For all the world it looked onside from the Broadcast camera perspective, which is why they draw these lines all over the shop. My gripe is that they use a few pixels to determine the offside line, but the vertical line business is crude at best
 
Last edited:
I know that Pinner P!!! Worked in the Gambling Industry for 20 years
What I mean, is that in the time period between the race ending and the Judge announcing the result, you can bet 'in-running' on what the outcome of the photo is gonna be. And we (as punters) only have the Broadcast Camera perspective
See below for an example from today! Winning distance was a head (far side, which is not easy to see)
I'm known as VAJ in the Racing World... Video Assistant Judge ;)

View attachment 5730

Anyway, it's all quite deceptive. The height of the horses nose is quite important when it comes to determining the position in relationship to the winning line. We frequently see offside decisions which simply don't look right. Aston Villa scored an equaliser against Newcastle and it was ruled offside. For all the world it looked onside from the Broadcast camera perspective, which is why they draw these lines all over the shop. My gripe is that they use a few pixels to determine the offside line, but the vertical line business is crude at best
I see what you mean now!

Barney Curley used to make a fortune from standing by the winning post and then betting on the result. This was in the days and at meetings without 'main' TV coverage.

Despite you calling me a plonker we do STILL agree on how useless VAR is! :rolleyes:

Just for the hell of it, I'm throwing in my own qualifications - big (national hunt only) horseracing fan and more relevant worked for ITV Sport for 38 years - in fact I had the dubious honour of compiling the first budgets for ITV's horseracing coverage!

Anyway lets get back to football and being friends again!:p
 
Back
Top