A&H

Yellow for a DOGSO

dylanbailey4444

dylanbailey4444

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
I know I’ve posted a few times on here for advice, I appreciate it a lot as I want to really get somewhere in referring. I did a u14’s game the other day. Division 3. Home team are 1st, won every game. Away team are mid table. I know I didn’t have the best game as I was asked to referee it about 10 minutes before kick off so only was able to jog from sideline to sideline twice and then it was time for the captains talk and player cards etc. In the second half, the captain who I had already had a word with, committed a quite obvious foul as the last man. I booked him. Straight out with my yellow. At this point, they were 6 or 7-0 down. They lost 8-0 in the end. I thought in a u14’s division 3 match where they were loosing 6 or 7-0, is it worth sending him off? I knew as well that the team and manager and coaches would loose it. After booking him and quickly getting his number, two players squaring up to each other. Both booked. Both sets of players holding players back. Sorted within a couple of minutes. A few more players square up to each other. Sorted quickly. The home coach said that he thought I was right to only give a yellow to the away captain- I agreed. There were a few other incidents throughout the game- I gave a dodgy back pass to the keeper as an IDFK, I shouted ‘you can’t pick that up keeper’ but he still did. I think maybe I wasn’t loud enough for him. They complained more about the so called ‘back pass’ than the dogso!😂

Thank you all!
 
The Referee Store
I get it, but:

a) apply Law
b) don’t be “last week’s ref”

Not sure any of us would be shouting at a keeper regarding a back pass too. Sure, I’ve given a thumbs up/down if they’ve looked at me for clarification, but vocals over tens of yards get misheard.
 
Max2 said:
I get it, but:

a) apply Law
b) don’t be “last week’s ref”
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I held back from the red as I thought well the score line, but I was sure that they would loose it and I would start to loose control of the game if I had sent him off. Looking back on it I should have sent him off.
 
What if the winning team miss out on winning the league by 1 goal or the losing team don't get relegated on goal difference?

The hard part of being a referee is applying law in challenging circumstances. It could be a player you've built a rapport with, or a really one sided game but the reality is, you don't get to decide how you apply law.

If it's marginal in terms of meeting the criteria for DOGSO, you may err on the side of benefit of the doubt, but if the criteria are met, you do no one any favours by not doing what's expected.
 
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Max2 said:
I get it, but:

a) apply Law
b) don’t be “last week’s ref”

Not sure any of us would be shouting at a keeper regarding a back pass too. Sure, I’ve given a thumbs up/down if they’ve looked at me for clarification, but vocals over tens of yards get misheard.
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Agree “can” and “can’t” can be misheard as the other, and then it becomes the ref’s fault. GKs should know the rule and make a smart decision on their own.
 
dylanbailey4444 said:
I know I’ve posted a few times on here for advice, I appreciate it a lot as I want to really get somewhere in referring. I did a u14’s game the other day. Division 3. Home team are 1st, won every game. Away team are mid table. I know I didn’t have the best game as I was asked to referee it about 10 minutes before kick off so only was able to jog from sideline to sideline twice and then it was time for the captains talk and player cards etc. In the second half, the captain who I had already had a word with, committed a quite obvious foul as the last man. I booked him. Straight out with my yellow. At this point, they were 6 or 7-0 down. They lost 8-0 in the end. I thought in a u14’s division 3 match where they were loosing 6 or 7-0, is it worth sending him off? I knew as well that the team and manager and coaches would loose it. After booking him and quickly getting his number, two players squaring up to each other. Both booked. Both sets of players holding players back. Sorted within a couple of minutes. A few more players square up to each other. Sorted quickly. The home coach said that he thought I was right to only give a yellow to the away captain- I agreed. There were a few other incidents throughout the game- I gave a dodgy back pass to the keeper as an IDFK, I shouted ‘you can’t pick that up keeper’ but he still did. I think maybe I wasn’t loud enough for him. They complained more about the so called ‘back pass’ than the dogso!😂

Thank you all!
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If the players and coach would have clearly lost in, due to you correctly applying the lotg, then its they who should consider an alternative hobby.
On the flip side, if aa referee we cannot carry out the lotg, then its us who should consider whether refereeing is for us
A Dogso we could find an excuse to ignore, was there a mythical defender who might have got back, was the attacker really going thro one on one etc, but if its clear dogso as described in the post, as an upholder of the lotg you concentrate on that first, any aftermath is down to your managment and personality to sort out
 
Anubis said:
On the flip side, if aa referee we cannot carry out the lotg, then its us who should consider whether refereeing is for us
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Agree with all of your comment - apart from this bit.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and it's a pretty steep learning curve. Dylan, you've reflected on the game and are realising that - unlike in most of the rest of the world - when coaches, managers, etc. complain it isn't necessarily because you've done something wrong. They are trying to influence you, motivate their team, make out they're hard done by and a myriad of other reasons. Keep reflecting, keep asking questions but don't doubt your abilities. Over time, all this will become easier (in my opinion not easy, but easier!).
 
On the 'dodgy backpass', if it's clearly a deliberate backpass you have to give it. It's black and white like the ball out of play. However, remember :
1. It has to be deliberate. My threshold for this is high. I'm going to be sure before I give it. If it might be deliberate or might be a miscued clearance, benefit of doubt to the defending team. In my experience this does happen reasonably often
2. It has to be kicked, not headed, kneed, chested etc (notwithstanding the old favourite deliberate trick)

I wouldn't be proactively shouting you can't pick it up, but I will confirm to the keeper he can pick it up or not when there has been time for him to ask or give me a quizzical look on something borderline. I think that comes under sensible game management. How you do that depends on the situation
 
Quarryref said:
On the 'dodgy backpass', if it's clearly a deliberate backpass you have to give it. It's black and white like the ball out of play. However, remember :
1. It has to be deliberate. My threshold for this is high. I'm going to be sure before I give it. If it might be deliberate or might be a miscued clearance, benefit of doubt to the defending team. In my experience this does happen reasonably often
2. It has to be kicked, not headed, kneed, chested etc (notwithstanding the old favourite deliberate trick)

I wouldn't be proactively shouting you can't pick it up, but I will confirm to the keeper he can pick it up or not when there has been time for him to ask or give me a quizzical look on something borderline. I think that comes under sensible game management. How you do that depends on the situation
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Agree, you get a feeling for the gk's uncertainty, and for me, its proactive ( avoiding an infrigement), good managment, and, a good spirit of the game example if you get a chance for a yes or no, in whatever form you best see fit.
For me, its a, yes you can, or no, no hands
Def try stay away from, you cant v you can, as you do risk yoir message being misunderstood.

all this plus lets be honest, as referees, we do not want to deal with the idfk which is to follow!
 
Exactly, be very careful about the words you're going to use if you're managing a "backpass".

I once shouted "don't pick it up!" to a GK, then when he picked it up and I gave the IFK, he claimed I had told him to "pick it up!" - as if that's an instruction any ref ever gives to a GK? I now go with "no hands" as the instruction if I would penalise.
 
Martiju said:
Agree with all of your comment - apart from this bit.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and it's a pretty steep learning curve. Dylan, you've reflected on the game and are realising that - unlike in most of the rest of the world - when coaches, managers, etc. complain it isn't necessarily because you've done something wrong. They are trying to influence you, motivate their team, make out they're hard done by and a myriad of other reasons. Keep reflecting, keep asking questions but don't doubt your abilities. Over time, all this will become easier (in my opinion not easy, but easier!).
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I do try and reflect on all my games as I’ve started referring relatively early- at 15- I sometimes time on my hands. I think working on communication with players and my game management. I’ve been told a lot of times that my game management is very good but I just feel like I am missing a few bits so definitely something to work on. Even communication with coaches to stop the influencing etc.
 
dylanbailey4444 said:
I do try and reflect on all my games as I’ve started referring relatively early- at 15- I sometimes time on my hands. I think working on communication with players and my game management. I’ve been told a lot of times that my game management is very good but I just feel like I am missing a few bits so definitely something to work on. Even communication with coaches to stop the influencing etc.
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It's not easy especially when you are a young referee as a lot of the 'soft skills' come with life experience. Practically I think there's a few things that you can do to develop:

1) Self awareness and self honesty on decisions you've got wrong and the root causes. You don't need to proclaim them to the world, but you've got to be honest with yourself to help you improve.
2) worth reviewing Law 12 for DOGSO, you referred to 'last man' start thinking more in terms of the actual laws - in this scenario if you've identified a foul, then you need to consider "is it a DOGSO?" using the 4 key criteria as set out in the good book. If you decide all criteria are met, then the next consideration is whether it's inside or outside the box and if inside whether an attempt has been made to play the ball or not. That then leads you to the right sanction.
3) easier said than done, but you have to remove the emotion in your decision making, match score, player being nice or not, worrying about spoiling a good game, none are your concern. By taking the almost forensic approach in point 2, the decision is completely fact based, not emotional. It's not easy as football is naturally an emotional game and as referees we have apply law not emotion.
 
“This is what I’ve given, and this is why”. All that needs to be explained to the manager in the technical area. No opinions, no “well…”. Provide facts, move off and go back to doing your job.
 
Max2 said:
“This is what I’ve given, and this is why”. All that needs to be explained to the manager in the technical area. No opinions, no “well…”. Provide facts, move off and go back to doing your job.
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yeah good point. It's ok to give a quick explanation, but when they what to come back with "but what about..." then it's turning into a debate, not an explanation and that's where you have to nip it in the bud.
 
Justylove said:
It's not easy especially when you are a young referee as a lot of the 'soft skills' come with life experience. Practically I think there's a few things that you can do to develop:

1) Self awareness and self honesty on decisions you've got wrong and the root causes. You don't need to proclaim them to the world, but you've got to be honest with yourself to help you improve.
2) worth reviewing Law 12 for DOGSO, you referred to 'last man' start thinking more in terms of the actual laws - in this scenario if you've identified a foul, then you need to consider "is it a DOGSO?" using the 4 key criteria as set out in the good book. If you decide all criteria are met, then the next consideration is whether it's inside or outside the box and if inside whether an attempt has been made to play the ball or not. That then leads you to the right sanction.
3) easier said than done, but you have to remove the emotion in your decision making, match score, player being nice or not, worrying about spoiling a good game, none are your concern. By taking the almost forensic approach in point 2, the decision is completely fact based, not emotional. It's not easy as football is naturally an emotional game and as referees we have apply law not emotion.
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Brilliant advice. Thank you. Very in-depth. I appreciate it!
 
Well done Dylan, the fact you are here discussing things shows you will go far.

I was AR today and had the exact same situation you described. Scoreline was 3-2 and it was a cup final. Striker through on goal, chasing defender trips them up. The ref gave a yellow. It was the other touchline to mine so i had no influence.

Observer asked in the dressing room post match why didn't you give that DOGSO as red? The answer? "It didn't feel like that kind of game and only 2 mins were left" .. observer not impressed. "So she stayed on, and what if it went to ET? You've a player on the FOP who shouldn't be there and you've invited a world of trouble" .. lesson for us all, not something i'd have considered. I will now.

The great thing is we can all share our experiences and develop.
 
refeire said:
Observer asked in the dressing room post match why didn't you give that DOGSO as red? The answer? "It didn't feel like that kind of game and only 2 mins were left" .. observer not impressed.
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Ooooof, that'll go down like a lead balloon I imagine.
 
socal lurker said:
Agree “can” and “can’t” can be misheard as the other, and then it becomes the ref’s fault. GKs should know the rule and make a smart decision on their own.
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This video is interesting, on your point. Can/can't was an issue at 0:38 and contributed to the captain calling the referee an effing cheat!

The whole video is a good watch - if nothing else to show how peremptorily professional rugby referees of Barnes' calibre will deal with OFFINABUS type language
 
refeire said:
Well done Dylan, the fact you are here discussing things shows you will go far.

I was AR today and had the exact same situation you described. Scoreline was 3-2 and it was a cup final. Striker through on goal, chasing defender trips them up. The ref gave a yellow. It was the other touchline to mine so i had no influence.

Observer asked in the dressing room post match why didn't you give that DOGSO as red? The answer? "It didn't feel like that kind of game and only 2 mins were left" .. observer not impressed. "So she stayed on, and what if it went to ET? You've a player on the FOP who shouldn't be there and you've invited a world of trouble" .. lesson for us all, not something i'd have considered. I will now.

The great thing is we can all share our experiences and develop.
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Just to touch on that, and, of course I never saw the dogso, but, bigger picture, never have the mindset that because its the other end of the pitch, that you cannot get involved.
Granted we have the credibility issue but, if its a clear, in this case dogso, clear, 100%, you are perfectly entitled to at very least give your input.
Having done so, and the ref still goes yellow, so be it

rare, yes. But if it means the referee team get the correct call then thats the end game

one of the best Ar calls i saw was the far away one giving a pk for handball in the other box. His initial thoughts were indeed, I have seen this but its the referee/other ar call.
He decided to be brave, raised flag, ref went with it.
Was proven the correct call. Vital, esp when he had same view as ( both) tech areas, who had both seen it too
You absolutely cannot hide behind, thats not my call, on kmi .
You and coach at sane angle seeing same kmi and its clearly ( not a 99% but a 100% wromg call), you are required to give your input.
 
Anubis said:
You absolutely cannot hide behind, thats not my call, on kmi .
You and coach at sane angle seeing same kmi and its clearly ( not a 99% but a 100% wromg call), you are required to give your input.
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Very good point. Only thing I'd add is that it also depends on the ref's briefing - some (many even) will say that they specifically don't want any input if it's outside your credible area. Personally I agree with you, but if that's what they want it's not helpful assisting to do something different.

A decent ref I was out with recently said if outside credible area give a buzz but keep the flag down - that enables them to make a judgement about something without causing the issue of what can really be seen (and can be seen to be seen!) unless they deem it beneficial. That seems like a pretty sensible approach to me.
 
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