A&H

Reds versus Blues

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not seen any clips, only a few pics so of course my view might change
but once again when we wonder why the manager at our game is war dancing through our game, we can thank our fellow badge wearers, our colleagues, for their refusal to correctly carry oiut their duties and instead, whether thro tv pressure, peer pressure or just ignorance, allow unacceptable sideline behaviour to become accepted
Some things are manageable , some things that might not be manageable at our game are so at elite level, and then you have the unmanageable
 
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The Referee Store
Matthew said:
Reflecting on the game this morning (with the blue tinted specs as off as I can get them), I think there are 3 KMIs yesterday, all of which Paul Tierney got wrong:
- First half penalty/DOGSO - it's a clear foul by Milner and whether it's a penalty and a yellow or a FK and DOGSO red, he simply has to be spotting that.
- Milner second half - that has to be a second yellow.
- Bernardo second half - haven't been able to find a clip and haven't really seen it mentioned, but Bernardo committed a foul later on in the second half when already on a yellow that should have seen him go off (SPA or reckless challenge, take your pick); we all expected it watching the game and I suspect the non-send off of Milner played a role in the lack of second yellow for Bernardo.

I also think it's pretty poor that Pep was allowed to get away with the histrionics and tantrum on the touchline (however justified you may think it was). It's not new and Tierney certainly won't be the last ref to ignore it, but that kind of stuff is why we all have to put up with that type of behaviour every week.

I stand by my statement that Tierney was out of this depth. He doesn't have much big game experience and I think he bottled, for want of a better word, the decisions rather than making unpopular but correct ones. I also think there's a wider discussion around how many refs we actually have that are capable of handling the big games? Oliver, Taylor, Atkinson (and maybe Dean) aside, I think there's a concerning lack of top quality referees in the PL and it really shows in games like yesterday.
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I agree he lacks big game experience and my team probably suffered because of it yesterday. But theres only one way to get big match experience!
 
Ben448844 said:
I agree he lacks big game experience and my team probably suffered because of it yesterday. But theres only one way to get big match experience!
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That’s the big question isn’t it (and not one I claim to have the answer to) - how do we make sure refs are better equipped to handle these games?

Obviously they need to ref big games to get that experience, but that has to be balanced against the need to ensure the big decisions are right in those games.
 
Muchomacho said:
In a game today I accidentally blocked a player attempting to make a tackle. I am guessing this is just bad luck and play continues?
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Put it this way, when this has happened in the EPL (Referee obviously impeding a player), on every occasion I've seen it, the Ref has stopped play and restarted with a Dropped Ball. This is not correct, but it's the precedent they've set. It's like they treat themselves as an outside agent in that moment in time. Personally, speaking from experience, I also would be inclined to do the same as I value Match Control slightly more that i do the LOTG (which are flaky). If I was asked by an 'observer', I'd indicate my knowledge of the Law, but claim I thought I'd been stuck by the ball or some other 'c0ck'n'bull'
 
So there's a lot of justified criticism WRT how this game was Refereed.
Lest not forget however, they're all Refereeing according to (evidently) strict instructions from their employer. The desperation to keep the game 11v11 and the failure to dismiss Pep; it all comes from above. It's that truth which is disgusting because all the Refs are the same for this reason
And yes, it's those financially motivated instructions which lead to the behaviour deemed acceptable at grass roots (and in society more generally IMO)
 
Matthew said:
That’s the big question isn’t it (and not one I claim to have the answer to) - how do we make sure refs are better equipped to handle these games?

Obviously they need to ref big games to get that experience, but that has to be balanced against the need to ensure the big decisions are right in those games.
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It's been interesting that relatively few of the regular EPL referees have been given the opportunity to graduate from 'normal' matches to the 'big' games. Tierney has, IMO, earned that right by some extremely strong and consistent performances (and PGMOL obviously agree). It's unfortunate that yesterday's game was not his finest but I'm sure he will (and should) be given further chances to prove himself at this very highest level
 
Muchomacho said:
Micah Richards analysis after the game was also way over the top. Not sure pundits can be yellow carded!
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Being on the west side of the Atlantic means I didn't see Richards' comments. But I'd remind everyone that Richards played for Man City, so take his commentary with the appropriate amount of skepticism given his ties to Man City.
 
RefIADad said:
Being on the west side of the Atlantic means I didn't see Richards' comments. But I'd remind everyone that Richards played for Man City, so take his commentary with the appropriate amount of skepticism given his ties to Man City.
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He is one of the most unbiased and likeable pundits out there. The general consensus this morning appears to be that Milner got away with one and it was not one of Tierneys better games.

People think I'm biased in that view as a City fan but it's just football. Refs do find it a bigger deal to give a red to a Liverpool player at Anfield or a United player at Old Trafford, who wouldn't. Theyre the biggest clubs. Alot of the ex refs who come and give talks to the RAs etc will even say so. Its human nature to want to be 100% sure and air on the side of caution in the most pressurised situations. Refs are human. The best get to a level where they can make the big calls correctly more often than the others. Tierney will get there imo.
 
Ben448844 said:
He is one of the most unbiased and likeable pundits out there. The general consensus this morning appears to be that Milner got away with one and it was not one of Tierneys better games.

The best get to a level where they can make the big calls correctly more often than the others. Tierney will get there imo.
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I'm sorry, that's so patronising. Whatever our opinions about individual decisions, these referees are at the top of their game and are being paid, as professionals, to make the tough decisions. On the other hand, Richards was invited in his capacity as a former MC player (just as Carragher was there as a former Red with, unironically it seems, Keane as the middleman). I don't care about their bias, but in any case as pundits they don't know the laws well, they certainly don't understand the intricacies of refereeing and neither do they care.

I still wonder about this one btw. My best guess is that there was no advantage on Henderson's foul so he came back for that one, thus nullifying anything that happened thereafter. It looked bad - but I just don't accept that if he thought it was a foul by Milner he wouldn't at least have had a very public word with him to make it clear he was on a last warning.
 
Martiju said:
I'm sorry, that's so patronising. Whatever our opinions about individual decisions, these referees are at the top of their game and are being paid, as professionals, to make the tough decisions. On the other hand, Richards was invited in his capacity as a former MC player (just as Carragher was there as a former Red with, unironically it seems, Keane as the middleman). I don't care about their bias, but in any case as pundits they don't know the laws well, they certainly don't understand the intricacies of refereeing and neither do they care.

I still wonder about this one btw. My best guess is that there was no advantage on Henderson's foul so he came back for that one, thus nullifying anything that happened thereafter. It looked bad - but I just don't accept that if he thought it was a foul by Milner he wouldn't at least have had a very public word with him to make it clear he was on a last warning.
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I'm not being patronising. I've quoted multiple times how good I think Tierny is. That doesn't mean he's beyond criticism. The key is to be objective which I believe I was but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Ben448844 said:
He is one of the most unbiased and likeable pundits out there. The general consensus this morning appears to be that Milner got away with one and it was not one of Tierneys better games.

People think I'm biased in that view as a City fan but it's just football. Refs do find it a bigger deal to give a red to a Liverpool player at Anfield or a United player at Old Trafford, who wouldn't. Theyre the biggest clubs. Alot of the ex refs who come and give talks to the RAs etc will even say so. Its human nature to want to be 100% sure and air on the side of caution in the most pressurised situations. Refs are human. The best get to a level where they can make the big calls correctly more often than the others. Tierney will get there imo.
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Richards is on CBS's US coverage of the Champions League, and he's excellent. I just think biases need to be taken into account for anyone when dealing with items like this one. As I've stated on here, I think Tierney needed to issue the 2nd caution on Milner. Even if Tierney acknowledged a foul on Henderson, we are supposed to punish the more serious offense.

I think the issue with making big calls like this lies a lot with the directive (spoken or unspoken) to keep matches 11 v 11 and to not send coaches off. Not saying this is right, but we all saw what happened with the fallout from the Chelsea-Liverpool game. Sometimes, it's just easier to accept the error of omission compared to the error of commission.
 
An observation. If Milner didn't have the first yellow, this would not have blown up the way it did. And it would not have had the reaction from Guardiola.

As I said, Cancelo should/could have also received two yellows. But there is no talk about it because the one he didn't get in the 54th would have been his first. And in all likelihood, had he received that one, the one he did get a yellow for in the 56th would not have been given.
 
just watched it,
not be amazed if am missing something but a City player ( sorry never heard of him! ) got a yellow at Liverpools first goal? what for?

City manager should have walked. Disgusting behaviour regardless of whats happening on the pitch. Sickening. Out of control
And Mike Dean stands there looking at him saying ' calm down!!!!'

expected sadly at that level and its us plebs who suffer the fall out
 
It doesn't help that referees are sworn to silence after the game. I still think there is a chance he gave a foul against Henderson, in which case there really isn't a lot to talk about.

People have said Tierney is inexperienced in big games, but he has been getting a lot of them recently and before yesterday has been widely praised. This season alone he's had Leicester vs Man City (Community Shield), Arsenal vs Chelsea, Leicester vs Man City (PL), Tottenham vs Chelsea, and Liverpool vs Man City. And last season he did Chelsea vs Liverpool, Chelsea vs Tottenham, Liverpool vs Man Utd, Man City vs Tottenham, Leicester vs Arsenal, and Man City vs Tottenham. That's a lot of big games in a short space of time.
 
Certainly point the finger at the ref for not spotting Milner's DOGSO challenge, but absolutely no excuse for VAR to miss that.

The sole purpose of VAR and it completely failed. Disappointing really.
 
one said:
Ok I am going to balance out the incidents discussed here.
1. In opposed to Milner's foul, this from Walker is a similar incident. A careless foul followed by what seems to be a reckless kick. I think Tierney managed it well but any thoughts on a caution for Walker here.

streamable.com

Walker reckless?

Watch "Walker reckless?" on Streamable.
streamable.com

2. Calncelo plays the ball but then stums on Sala's foot. To my surprise Sala bounces up immediately and doesn't appeal but reckless for me.

streamable.com

Cancelo reckless?

Watch "Cancelo reckless?" on Streamable.
streamable.com
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Gosh, that's pretty desperate whataboutery. The first is not SPA, and Walker kicked where the ball would have been if Jiota hadn't punched the ball out of play. If VAR didn't think the Milner "DOGSO" was even a foul (as the Manchester Evening News reported*) you've no chance with the Cancelo one. * No idea where they got that, but it's the best explanation of why VAR didn't call a clear and obvious mistake.

I don't much credence either to the "explanation" that Mr Tierney gave the foul by Henderson rather than Milner. It doesn't help the case for the defence - Mr T should have played advantage for the foul by Henderson (as he probably did).

Just to "balance" the Pep YC issue, "what about" Henderson's unpunished tirade at the AR for not getting a throw-in?
 
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Muchomacho said:
Surprised, by some of the anti-referee comments on here, on a refs forum! Genuine question, if Tierney thinks Henderson committed the first foul against Silva, then Milner’s fouls doesn’t count, unless it’s serious foul play.
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How does Milner's foul not count - surely if it is a reckless tackle it can still be sanctioned with a YC even if it takes place after a team mate has already committed a foul?
 
steakbridie said:
How does Milner's foul not count - surely if it is a reckless tackle it can still be sanctioned with a YC even if it takes place after a team mate has already committed a foul?
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in no way is that a reckless tackle.
its about as routine a foul as you can ever see.
its SPA or persistent if applies.
 
Or plain USB. Blatant 'professional' fouls often get cautioned , rightly so and its plain USB (or if you like lack of respect for the game). The most common garden variety is a prolong hold of the shirt once you've been beat.
 
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I'm a bit concered too about some late tackles (in this game and at least one other PL game this weekend) which looked clear reckless YC offences, where the ref played advantage but hasn't gone back and cautioned the offender. Because no foul was given we didn't get TV replays but at first showing they looked nasty from behind lunges.
 
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