A&H

Youth football DOGSO

Rowanmano

Member
Level 7 Referee
Never been quite certain about when to implement DOGSO but on Sunday I had an U12 match 4-3 with about 2 minutes to go, corner comes in clear handball on the line give the penalty and send off the player, penalty taker scored and match ended 4-4 but afterwards manager of side who had player sent off came up to me and said you can’t send players that young off for DOGSO as it isn’t in the spirit of the game I explained why I had no choice and he walked off saying I was ruining the game for the kids. Just want to see at what age group does everyone else implement DOGSO?
 
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Never been quite certain about when to implement DOGSO but on Sunday I had an U12 match 4-3 with about 2 minutes to go, corner comes in clear handball on the line give the penalty and send off the player, penalty taker scored and match ended 4-4 but afterwards manager of side who had player sent off came up to me and said you can’t send players that young off for DOGSO as it isn’t in the spirit of the game I explained why I had no choice and he walked off saying I was ruining the game for the kids. Just want to see at what age group does everyone else implement DOGSO?

refer the coach to the lotg which in turn specify what can be amended for different ages

competitive game, red card 8 days a week.

dogso, ( esp in this case one that we cannot make excuses for) is not one of the variables

if they wish an official ref, they need to expect that ref to referee accordingly.

red card on my pitch. Not that I gain any pleasure from it, but, am appointed to apply the lotg to the best of my ability.
 
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Context - serious 11v11 players that practice 4 times a week, deliberate DOGSO-H, red card no problem.

8v8 hobby league, saturday morning 9am, first game of 3 for a mixed ability team, I’m giving a yellow card. Sue me;)
 
Out of curiosity... would you (or anyone else who wants to contribute) have shown the same for the offence much earlier in the match?

And from what age group would you produce the red for that DOGSO?
 
For me, time left in the match is utterly irrelevant to DOGSO at any age.

In thinking about DOGSO in youth games, I think about a few things.

Obvious isn't so obvious at younger/less skilled ages, so it has to be really obvious at 12U.

On handling, for most 12U, albeit technically wrong, I'm not going to send off for DOGSO-H unless I believe it to have been cynical--I'm just going to be far less sure it was actually going in the goal. (At a high skill level of 12U, that line changes.)

At 10U, DOGSO isn't going to even cross my mind unless it's a really cynical play.
 
While I have no hard-and-fast rule, law allows some time for manoeuvre, especially with regard to skill level. Younger age groups and lower skill levels impact directly on the “obvious” part.

In the case of the OP, the defender handling in the line is denying a goal. End of story - he/she is gone. No question of skill level or anything else here. Your only get outs are someone immediately scores or the ball was over the line and the player “cleared” it with their hand.

In the case of the latter you need to be in a brilliant position to see it and be beyond all reproach. Not one you can sell with a wink.
 
Age old argument that no one will ever agree on and has been discussed countless times on here, in person at games and meetings etc....

For me, I ref'd on the premise of once players hit u13/11v11, gloves are off and the cards are coming out if necessary especially for DOGSO, SFP & VC. U12 and below if it's serious enough, I asked the manager to sideline the player.

I have seen in person the consequences of a referee to not punishing a blatant DOGSO in an U14 game my son was playing in. Shot middle of the goal, about 2ft below the bar, keeper well beaten, defender full stretch palms the ball away with both hands. Referee shows him a yellow card. 2 minutes later, same defender jumps in 2 footed just below knee height and breaks an opponent's leg!

In my final season as a referee, I had my first ever DOGSO, in an U15s game . Last minute of the game, attacker rounds the stranded keeper and shots for goal from just inside the box. Defender running back, sticks out a hand and palms the ball away. Instantly blew for the penalty and defender begins walking over to me without needing to be summoned. I shouldn't have done it, but I actually felt sorry for the kid and apologized for the red saying "sorry, but I have no choice" and he took it without complaint and was the first to shake my hand after the game. Was he going to break anyone's leg if I had left him on the pitch? Highly unlikely as I blew fulltime after the penalty was scored, however 1st minute or last minute, the decision was always going to be the same!
 
refer the coach to the lotg which in turn specify what can be amended for different ages

competitive game, red card 8 days a week.

dogso, ( esp in this case one that we cannot make excuses for) is not one of the variables

if they wish an official ref, they need to expect that ref to referee accordingly.

red card on my pitch. Not that I gain any pleasure from it, but, am appointed to apply the lotg to the best of my ability.
Firstly, I hope you don't use sarcasm like this in real life when refereeing. It won't get you far and will just cause an instant divide between you and managers. Secondly, I really don't understand why some ref's here have to take this hard-line black and white approach to refereeing. Look, I get you want to uphold the laws of the game, that's what our job is, but use some common sense. When the kids are (in this instance) 11 years old, what is the benefit of issuing a red card, especially for DOGSO? We are not just referee's but educators for the younger kids and should help them learn.

Think of the wider repercussions of being so hard-line at this age level. Once you have issued the red card, the child will then miss a future game and his parents will have to stump up £35. Some parents are single parents and will struggle to even pay this. You aren't just ending his game early for a silly mistake and upsetting the child, but taking away something they love (and maybe keep them out of trouble) for a set period of time.

I know some will disagree with me on this, and that's fine. But you need to ask yourself does the punishment really fit the crime at children's level and will the hard-line approach really benefit anyone? Discussing and educating young children is in my opinion the better option.
 
Firstly, I hope you don't use sarcasm like this in real life when refereeing. It won't get you far and will just cause an instant divide between you and managers. Secondly, I really don't understand why some ref's here have to take this hard-line black and white approach to refereeing. Look, I get you want to uphold the laws of the game, that's what our job is, but use some common sense. When the kids are (in this instance) 11 years old, what is the benefit of issuing a red card, especially for DOGSO? We are not just referee's but educators for the younger kids and should help them learn.

Think of the wider repercussions of being so hard-line at this age level. Once you have issued the red card, the child will then miss a future game and his parents will have to stump up £35. Some parents are single parents and will struggle to even pay this. You aren't just ending his game early for a silly mistake and upsetting the child, but taking away something they love (and maybe keep them out of trouble) for a set period of time.

I know some will disagree with me on this, and that's fine. But you need to ask yourself does the punishment really fit the crime at children's level and will the hard-line approach really benefit anyone? Discussing and educating young children is in my opinion the better option.
Factual. Not sarcastic.

The consequences of issuing a red are of no concern to a match official

your senario is fine without an appointed registered match official.
when one of them is in place, they can be flexible to suit
however
they cannot blatently cause an affront to the lotg.

maybe before this weekends game, hand the referee a note of the offences that you do wish sanctioned and any other modifications, maybe...award a goal even if it dont go in, just so Jordan gets his hatrick, or, disallow any goal that rolls thro the gk legs to save him the indignity of costing his team the game

dont want the referee to apply the lotg? want the referee to pick and choose which laws to apply?
then its a kids party host you require, not a registered official.

if anything, you are sounding like you would not respect the referees decision, which, is a horrible example to be setting 12yos in itself..no wonder there are respect campaigns and referee assaults if a coach wont accept ( nobody said agree, accept), the referees decision,
 
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Factual. Not sarcastic.

The consequences of issuing a red are of no concern to a match official

your senario is fine without an appointed registered match official.
when one of them is in place, they can be flexible to suit
however
they cannot blatently cause an affront to the lotg.

dont want the referee to apply the lotg? want the referee to pick and choose which laws to apply?
then its a kids party host you require, not a registered official.

if anything, you are sounding like you would not respect the referees decision, which, is a horrible example to be setting 12yos in itself..no wonder there are respect campaigns and referee assaults if a coach wont accept ( nobody said agree, accept), the referees decision,
Many respected referee's will tell you flexibility should be considered at young ages. Infact, The Laws Of The Game even states 'referee's should apply the laws within the 'spirit of the game'.

If you want to continue refereeing with this hardline stance of 'rules are rules' then that's your choice, you clearly don't want to consider the alternative view of helping and educating those who need it. At the end of the day, at that age you are refereeing children who need encouragement and advice, not being banned and fines for silly mistakes. There's a big difference between how I'd referee 11 year olds and 16 year olds.
 
Many respected referee's will tell you flexibility should be considered at young ages. Infact, The Laws Of The Game even states 'referee's should apply the laws within the 'spirit of the game'.

If you want to continue refereeing with this hardline stance of 'rules are rules' then that's your choice, you clearly don't want to consider the alternative view of helping and educating those who need it. At the end of the day, at that age you are refereeing children who need encouragement and advice, not being banned and fines for silly mistakes. There's a big difference between how I'd referee 11 year olds and 16 year olds.

And if you wish to continue a campaign of disrespecting the referees decision, thats your free will also

You are free to pick and choose which laws you wish to apply or ignore, equally, a referee is perfectly entitled to adhere to the lotg.

not quite sure offended team playing v a full opposing team when they should be playing v one less, is within the spirit of the game,

we strive for consistency, so , learning and education wise, the kids become familiar with the laws
Difficult and confusing for kids if one guys letting it go, the next is putting him off
Avoided, if everyone did as per the book.
 
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And if you wish to continue a campaign of disrespecting the referees decision, thats your free will also

You are free to pick and choose which laws you wish to apply or ignore, equally, a referee is perfectly entitled to adhere to the lotg.

we strive for consistency, so , learning and education wise, the kids become familiar with the laws
Difficult and confusing for kids if one guys letting it go, the next is putting him off
Avoided, if everyone did as per the book.
Are you always this ignorant and obnoxious? I just referred to the laws of the game which promotes flexibility based on the spirit of the game, to accuse me of taking part of a campaign to disrespect referees is pathetic.

We are just going in circles now, so carry on just doing things by the book. You are someone who is stuck in their outdated ways. If you want to treat children the same as Premier League players then that's your decision, ultimately they won't benefit much from it.
 
Are you always this ignorant and obnoxious? I just referred to the laws of the game which promotes flexibility based on the spirit of the game, to accuse me of taking part of a campaign to disrespect referees is pathetic.

We are just going in circles now, so carry on just doing things by the book. You are someone who is stuck in their outdated ways. If you want to treat children the same as Premier League players then that's your decision, ultimately they won't benefit much from

Would love to stay chat, however, have an evening game to observe, involving the country's top equal biggest club and subsequent academy,
Where I will be welcomed with a cuppa from the home team and choice of chocolate biscuit, such is my standing within the game locally here

not bad for someone who has no regard for kids development...
 
Are you always this ignorant and obnoxious? I just referred to the laws of the game which promotes flexibility based on the spirit of the game, to accuse me of taking part of a campaign to disrespect referees is pathetic.

We are just going in circles now, so carry on just doing things by the book. You are someone who is stuck in their outdated ways. If you want to treat children the same as Premier League players then that's your decision, ultimately they won't benefit much from it.

and you are someone who causes next weeks ref to get stick for the henious crime of...

adhering to the lotg

good evening I agree circles. next.
 
Are you always this ignorant and obnoxious? I just referred to the laws of the game which promotes flexibility based on the spirit of the game, to accuse me of taking part of a campaign to disrespect referees is pathetic.

We are just going in circles now, so carry on just doing things by the book. You are someone who is stuck in their outdated ways. If you want to treat children the same as Premier League players then that's your decision, ultimately they won't benefit much from it.
Robert, I understand your strength of feeling on this matter. And as others have already said, there are indeed instances where flexible interpretation of some laws can work well (eg adjusting DOGSO decisions to account for lower skill levels at younger age groups). However, the basic referee course that myself and other referee tutors around England are currently teaching to all new recruits stresses a fundamental difference between how referees should operate in mini soccer (Under 10, 7 v 7) and all higher age groups. It is in the U10 and below where our role is more as an educator than an enforcer. Whilst you may personally feel that this should extend to U11, U12 etc, there has to be a consistent cut off point somewhere. Otherwise you will end up with some refs thinking that cards should never / only rarely be used at all sorts of random ages, whilst others will adhere more strictly to the laws, breeding confusion and the dreaded inconsistency.

In my opinion, the situation in the Original Post is a black and white one where any referee not sending off for the offence is simply creating problems for the officials that referee those teams in future
 
Are you always this ignorant and obnoxious? I just referred to the laws of the game which promotes flexibility based on the spirit of the game, to accuse me of taking part of a campaign to disrespect referees is pathetic.

We are just going in circles now, so carry on just doing things by the book. You are someone who is stuck in their outdated ways. If you want to treat children the same as Premier League players then that's your decision, ultimately they won't benefit much from it.
I think you are applying too much weight to what the spirit of the game means... As many a referee does when doing opposite of what law says.
Spirit of game applies to situations the law doesn't cover where the referee should apply what football expects.

It also covers things like inaccurate markings, missing corner flags and such where a game should be allowed to go ahead so long as there is no safety

It can't and shouldn't be a substitute for the laws. Spirit of the game talks about fairness.
If a player denies what is certainly a. Goal by handball, there's no way I would give a corner and not send the player off. It's rewarding cheating. The only fair way would be to award the goal but again I am not awarding a goal of the ball has not cirssed the line under the bar and between the posts.

Handball on the line is the direct opposite of the spirit of the game so I'm lost as to how we can then use that as the reason to keep the player on.

Finally, you let player a do it. Then player B does it because player a did it. Then player c d e f and g all do it too because you've set the bar that everyone's the goalie at least one chance. Say player a does it twice. You still not sending off?
 
he walked off saying I was ruining the game for the kids.

More like he's ruining it for them by not giving them the proper education on the game. No doubt, he'll also be filtering his nonsense to the players and their parents, hence fostering a hostile attitude to 'idiot' refs who 'spoil the game' for everyone.

As to the question; Yes, apply the LOTG once you're out of the mini's/fun stages. In my area I believe that's U13's and up. Of course, I absolutely tailor my foul detection/punishment to the age and ability of the players, but things like DOSGO etc, best to enforce them and that can be educating in and of itself.
 
Secondly, I really don't understand why some ref's here have to take this hard-line black and white approach to refereeing. Look, I get you want to uphold the laws of the game, that's what our job is, but use some common sense. When the kids are (in this instance) 11 years old, what is the benefit of issuing a red card, especially for DOGSO? We are not just referee's but educators for the younger kids and should help them learn.

Think of the wider repercussions of being so hard-line at this age level. Once you have issued the red card, the child will then miss a future game and his parents will have to stump up £35. Some parents are single parents and will struggle to even pay this. You aren't just ending his game early for a silly mistake and upsetting the child, but taking away something they love (and maybe keep them out of trouble) for a set period of time.

I know some will disagree with me on this, and that's fine. But you need to ask yourself does the punishment really fit the crime at children's level and will the hard-line approach really benefit anyone? Discussing and educating young children is in my opinion the better option.

Swings and roundabouts. There's some merit in what you say, but ultimately, we're referees, not social workers. The irate parent/coach who's child/player's goal-bound shot has been deliberately handled on the line by an opponent who then, not only remains on the field (after the resultant penalty has possibly been missed) but who goes on to score the winning goal for his team ... might not agree with your sentiment. Like somebody already said, there's always a bit of room for manoeuvre where kids and the strict application of law are involved, (such as allowing a "foul throw" to be retaken after offering advice to correct it) but not where blatant cheating or foul play is concerned.

If the kids just wanted an adult to blow the whistle for free kicks and not much else, then a parent/coach can do that. If they want a qualified referee, complete with black kit and knowledge of the LOTG, then that's exactly what they should get. :)
 
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