Fair enough. But I think Sian mistakenly thought the Promising Attack had lost its impetus. She also got the Offside wrong. You can see by her face that she's kicking herself even before VAR ruled against her
WBA V Man City
- Thread starter Paul_10
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I added an edit above. There was an issue in the teamwork, quite clearly.
She is definitely talking to someone, that might be the VAR or talking to ref, either way it ended up looking a bit messy.
That's how I interpret the law that wait until the move has broke down then whistle for the potential offside.
I do agree though for obvious offsides they need to flag right away, I'm sure the procedure was for those marginal decisions like it was in last nights game and not the more obvious ones which is annoying alot of people.
halter42
Member
Here is the video without geoblock.
Agreed - that definitely doesn't meet the "very clear attacking situation" criteria. Forward progress had stopped, the ball was pulled back to 20+ yards out and it's only the defence stopping and the City player being good enough to float it in that has even caused a debate.
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socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I think you are overstating the type of communication that goes on during dynamic play. There are protocols on what the ARs will say. I know for MLS that the AR protocol is that if the AR has OS it is the AR that makes the decision on delaying the flag, and the full story is communicated by the AR saying "Delay, delay, delay" into the comm. The AR then raises the flag when the AR concludes that the attack no longer meets the criteria for delay. (And of course, as with all flags, it is up to the R to "accept" a flag from the AR.) I would be surprised if the PL logistics are much difference and include the R advising the AR whether to delay the flag or not.
My sense is that MLS has done a much better job than PL of training ARs on the delay practice and creating a consistency in application. The delay process is a very hard one to implement as it busts up years/decades of muscle memory and brain process. Now, on every OS call, the AR has to also process (1) was this close enough to delay (when we have always thought of these as black and white, now the AR has to think in gray) and (2) is this a "very clear attacking situation" (a brand new, not crisply defined concept)--all while at the same time being prepared for a potential next call.
When Bernard silva receives the ball he is on the edge of the area and has a clear run into the opponents penalty area, he actually manouveres Into a position where he can either shoot, or do as he does, lay off to his teamate to score a goal.. Either way for me this is a much more acceptable delay of the flag than many other circumstances we see it.
I'm not overstating anything, I'm conjecturing
. I dont really know what is said - but as you rightly say the referee makes the final decision. Yes he can decline a flag, or take it, but comms can easily be used in this scenario to avoid this situation, whereby the flag goes up, in error. My understanding, having AR'd for a FL assistant, now FIFA women ref, is that all refs use the comms differently. I think there are common terminologies but in her triangle (3refs 6 ARs) the 3 refs she worked with regularly all did slightly different things with comms.
I dont think it is beyond the realms of possibility that the ref and AR are communicating about when to hold and when to go. For me it would help if I had that voice of reason say hold to help over ride those muscle memories.
You're right actually, the flag goes up slightly earlier than I was remembering. When he's driving towards the defender, I'd argue the flag should stay down - if he beats that man and puts the ball low and hard into the 6 yard box, that's a textbook high % attacking opportunity.
However I'd argue that once he pulls it back to the teammate, that's a justifiable point to put the flag up. Even with the best players in the world, we can't be considering 20+ yards out, diagonal from goal and stationary with an entire defence in the way to be a clear opportunity.
Fair enough. I think you're still going a smidge too early. I think the optimum point to stop is as I said in my earlier post 1) ball out of play
2) defensive intervention
3) a significant change to the attack, such as a breakdown/2nd wave. E. G cancelo then passes it on to someone else. At this level it is not inconceivable for the attacker to shift it out fo his feet and stick it in the top bin, which is exactly what happened
I don't want to get into phases as we know that muddies the water a little BUT I would argue this is the same attacking phase and believe the phase should be allowed to conclude before checking for offences, or going back to a suspected offence requiring no check.
bester
RefChat Addict
Nobody knows the communication so hard to apportion fault. The referee should be telling the assistant when the attack is over, the assistant will have told them there was an offside in the build-up.
Possible scenario.
Sian tells Kavanagh she has an offside, Kavanagh tells her to stick the flag up when the attack is over.
What might've have happened in the 2 seconds between the communication and the flag going up is that Kavanagh has realised the attack still has chances.
Possible scenario.
Sian tells Kavanagh she has an offside, Kavanagh tells her to stick the flag up when the attack is over.
What might've have happened in the 2 seconds between the communication and the flag going up is that Kavanagh has realised the attack still has chances.
All perfectly fair. But don't forget as well, in SME's head, an offside offence has been committed.
From her perspective, putting the flag up to stop an offside goal being scored is a better outcome than letting the goal be scored and then having to later on disallow it because she bottled what may actually turn out to have been an obvious offside call. Earlier in the thread people were talking about a grey area - I'd argue we need to consider multiple different grey areas as well, depending on what the assistant thinks has probably happened.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Borderline case - action around the edge of the box - "clear run" is a horrible phrase to have in the book.
There was a period a couple of months ago when there were really silly delayed flags on runs to the corners - and it seemed like the prem officials were getting very relaxed.
There is obvs a timing problem to get used to. I feel for them. After 10+ years of perfecting assisting and wait and see, to then have to switch routine on the fly in full view of the cameras is tough.
Not quite correct. SME still has to make a decision. Once she has made it the important factor is when she indicates it. If she made it straight away, a perfectly legitimate goal has been stopped (we'd be none the wiser but we are working with the benefit of hindsight here)
Which is why I have highlighted the importance of AR and referee communication.
Let's say she waited until the goal was scored, then she indicated offside and she was wrong. This thread doesn't exist, because the protocol is followed, the correct conclusion is reached and VAR gets a rare "it worked well". A good goal was allowed to stand.
Let's say it was offside, again she indicates a the optimum moment, after the goal is scored, same outcome, no thread, VAR did its job.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I think that we know this is not the process--if it was, we would not have a flag up and no whistle.
We also don't know what the process is being taught and what level of scoring opportunity officials are being told to delay on. Without knowing what they are told to do, we can't really opine on whether the AR or R did it properly--all we can talk about is how we think it should be done.
This is one of those scenarios where it would be great to see the powers that be explain what actually happened here and what should have (in their view) happened. This is an area that PRO/MLS in the US have done a great job with transparency. If this happened in an MLS game, PRO would have an explanation and likely would include what was said over the comms between the R and AR and then with the VAR. PRO would say whether (in its opinion) the flag was too early or too late and whether the R should have delayed the whistle or not. It would be fantastic if we could see the same thing from PL games.
Think we might have a PL Assistant ref joining out weekly catchup session next week, I am already lining this question up for him
Talking to someone? Before she puts the flag up?
No, after the goal the camera zoomed into her and she was talking into the mic.
TV isn't always showing them, but I'm fairly sure City have had a couple of no-delay flags this season (and the CR blowing) that were not offside, and I assume other teams have.
(I'm still waiting to see how tight it was - comparing attacker's head / upper arm with defender's foot.)
(I'm still waiting to see how tight it was - comparing attacker's head / upper arm with defender's foot.)
Agree, which is why I think Sian Massey was correct to raise the flag when she did, well correct in the timing but not on the decision obviously. There's no way the player is about to score a goal and certainly doesn't have a clear run into the penalty area. Had Kavanagh blown straight away there would have been no VAR check, no one would have even know that her decision was marginally wrong and there would have been no controversy.