A&H

Christchurch vs Lymington Town - Wessex League

Whenever opinion is split, a YC is the appropriate sanction IMO. I don't want to dismiss a player with 50% confidence
 
The Referee Store
Unfortunately, in the middle of a game, we don't get to go to a forum to get a vote on a tackle :). I'm with you on yellow but it has to be your decision with your reasoning. There are those here who think this is 100% red and is fine by me too with justified reasoning.
 
markref said:
I had a very similar tackle last weekend and went yellow. It was right in front of the away bench and they were horrified when I cautioned their player because he won the ball, but his other leg caught the opponent. I didn't think the contact with the second leg was enough to justify UEF but it definitely needed dealing with. He got a yellow and a serious b*****king, and all the players thought that was excessive. I only had the one view and thought yellow straight away - I'm with Rusty on this because on first view it doesn't look that bad because although the leg is straight it's nowhere near the opponent. In an incident like this you tend to watch the front leg because that's the one that's most likely to really do damage. It's easy to miss the following leg which can also hurt if it catches the player wrong. It would have been interesting if I'd had a slo-mo replay to fall back on! The only thing in his favour was that with the leg bent and not straight at the opponent it isn't as likely to cause serious injury, although it would still hurt. Red can easily be justified.

As One and socal lurker have said, it's at least a yellow - I think it's the definitive orange card. The context is incredibly important in incidents like this, because if the tempo is raised this is the type of challenge which can lose you a game, so needs to be dealt with more firmly in feistier games.
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I don't think benches and players are horrified anymore, the clampdown on dangerous tackling (whether ball has been taken or not) has been in effect for years. They just pretend they are and act hard done to to try and reduce the punishment that they know is coming. Did it myself as a player many times. Always used the "i won the ball ref" but in reality I know I'm in trouble under modern laws, im just trying to reduce the punishment and get the ref to be lenient on me next time.

I always look for a studs up tackle where the ball is won early in a game and give a foul (most involve the ball being won and no injury). You've given a clear message that you don't accept that tackling technique early on and it makes it easier from there.
 
Just out of curiosity, what do you say to a player when you are sending them off for a tackle like this?
 
Mada said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you say to a player when you are sending them off for a tackle like this?
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keep it simple, following the correct procedure...

1. could you give me your surname please (or first name / number etc whatever you want to note down)
2. thanks. i'm sending you off for serious foul play

and that's it

of course you may then get some congratulations / questions from the player and his team!
 
Ben448844 said:
I don't think benches and players are horrified anymore, the clampdown on dangerous tackling (whether ball has been taken or not) has been in effect for years. They just pretend they are and act hard done to to try and reduce the punishment that they know is coming. Did it myself as a player many times. Always used the "i won the ball ref" but in reality I know I'm in trouble under modern laws, im just trying to reduce the punishment and get the ref to be lenient on me next time.

I always look for a studs up tackle where the ball is won early in a game and give a foul (most involve the ball being won and no injury). You've given a clear message that you don't accept that tackling technique early on and it makes it easier from there.
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You might be right on some occasions, but I have had players / team officials adamant that if he won the ball then it's a fair challenge. I've certainly heard this on Sky Sports recently with their "experts."

I was observing on our supply league a couple of years ago and there was a truly horrible straight leg challenge almost right in front of me. The referee went yellow - that was totally wrong and my mark reflected that. I read the away team's write up a couple of days later and the comment made was along the lines of "he was possibly lucky to stay on, but it was only one footed so probably just about right!" Yes, it was only one footed but it left a player in a mangled heap on the ground and cost his team the game. They were ahead at the time and lost control after that and lost the match.
The L4 referee felt that as the player won the ball before clattering the opponent a yellow was enough because he only used one foot.

I sent a player off for a challenge similar to but worse than the OP (the second leg was straight as well - the front foot won the ball while the back one took the ball of the player's ankle - he went off in an ambulance) At the end of the game the team's goalkeeper came up and told me that it was harsh to send off the other team's player because he clearly took the ball first. The GK was a local L7 referee, but he was adamant that winning the ball means it's open season. I almost sent him off because he wasn't having it and was arguing so strongly I had to get his manager to remove him or I would!

I sent a player off for straight footing a goalkeeper. The ball was played back to the goalkeeper to kick out. As he got there a forward slid in with legs straight and put his studs behind the ball as the GK kicked it. When the keeper kicked it his foot stopped at the ball and he did a forward somersault over the ball because he couldn't kick through the opponent's body. He landed on the floor very hard and dislocated his hip. Another ambulance. At the end of the game the keeper's team said that if I didn't want to submit the sending off they wouldn't report it, because they didn't feel it should have been red!

You may know the laws, but I'm afraid not everyone does. Often the worst culprits are other referees, because they cause trouble for the rest of us who do the job properly.
 
markref said:
You might be right on some occasions, but I have had players / team officials adamant that if he won the ball then it's a fair challenge. I've certainly heard this on Sky Sports recently with their "experts."

I was observing on our supply league a couple of years ago and there was a truly horrible straight leg challenge almost right in front of me. The referee went yellow - that was totally wrong and my mark reflected that. I read the away team's write up a couple of days later and the comment made was along the lines of "he was possibly lucky to stay on, but it was only one footed so probably just about right!" Yes, it was only one footed but it left a player in a mangled heap on the ground and cost his team the game. They were ahead at the time and lost control after that and lost the match.
The L4 referee felt that as the player won the ball before clattering the opponent a yellow was enough because he only used one foot.

I sent a player off for a challenge similar to but worse than the OP (the second leg was straight as well - the front foot won the ball while the back one took the ball of the player's ankle - he went off in an ambulance) At the end of the game the team's goalkeeper came up and told me that it was harsh to send off the other team's player because he clearly took the ball first. The GK was a local L7 referee, but he was adamant that winning the ball means it's open season. I almost sent him off because he wasn't having it and was arguing so strongly I had to get his manager to remove him or I would!

I sent a player off for straight footing a goalkeeper. The ball was played back to the goalkeeper to kick out. As he got there a forward slid in with legs straight and put his studs behind the ball as the GK kicked it. When the keeper kicked it his foot stopped at the ball and he did a forward somersault over the ball because he couldn't kick through the opponent's body. He landed on the floor very hard and dislocated his hip. Another ambulance. At the end of the game the keeper's team said that if I didn't want to submit the sending off they wouldn't report it, because they didn't feel it should have been red!

You may know the laws, but I'm afraid not everyone does. Often the worst culprits are other referees, because they cause trouble for the rest of us who do the job properly.
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I agree that there are still some people that are adamant that winning the ball means its a fair challenge, but in my experience there are alot less than there used to be. Anybody who watches PL football on TV cant fail to see that.

You've got to penalise tackles like this early on, and I'm talking about giving fouls when no one appeals and the player on the ball stays on his feet etc. I learnt early on in my refereeing venture that not penalising tackles that have studs up etc (even if theres no appeals) only leads to problems down the line. Once you've given one for studs being up etc you've set your bar for all to see.

First game of this season in a Rotherham Sunday League game i gave a yellow card for a tackle where no one appealed. Player went crazy and I had to give him his last rights when he began arguing. After the game we chatted and I told him that if I let a lunge like that go then I've opened the floodgates for everyone to lunge in like you did and that you'd probably be target number 1. He agreed and deep down he knew he'd gone in too hard. It would be easier if we got consistency although some refs won't even give a foul for the tackle I showed a yellow, so that inconsistency will always be there. Its just not something I can let concern me
 
Mada said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you say to a player when you are sending them off for a tackle like this?
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es1 said:
keep it simple, following the correct procedure...

1. could you give me your surname please (or first name / number etc whatever you want to note down)
2. thanks. i'm sending you off for serious foul play

and that's it

of course you may then get some congratulations / questions from the player and his team!
Click to expand...

Could be worth noting that in some situations simply producing the red quickly could help diffuse the situation and don't say anything.

Happened to myself last week. Player left foot in when keeper went to ground to get the ball. Didn't say anything other than produce a red nice and quickly.
 
Degnann said:
Could be worth noting that in some situations simply producing the red quickly could help diffuse the situation and don't say anything.

Happened to myself last week. Player left foot in when keeper went to ground to get the ball. Didn't say anything other than produce a red nice and quickly.
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absolutely, depends on player reaction
 
Mada said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you say to a player when you are sending them off for a tackle like this?
Click to expand...
Depends how you do it. Quick card is a quick card nothing said.
If I have isolated the player I might give him a brief of what I have seen. Your first contact was with the ball, however, you were not in control of the challenge, you've ended up 2 feet, and the second leg has endangered your opponents safety. That's serious foul play and I am sending you off.
Or I might as @es1 suggests just say sending you off for serious foul play and show the red

In other news, also had a caution for a reckless foul that 'won the ball' and when I agreed with the player he started with his captain, he said I won the ball.
I just said to him, just because you won the ball doesn't make it a good tackle.
Tbh it was close to a red. I explained to him It involved 2 feet, (his saving grace for me was that) the feet were not raised and all of the contact was with the ball, not the player,
and the challenge was reckless. Had he not won the ball and caught the player it would have been red for sure. And he seemed to accept that then.
 
JamesL said:
Depends how you do it. Quick card is a quick card nothing said.
If I have isolated the player I might give him a brief of what I have seen. Your first contact was with the ball, however, you were not in control of the challenge, you've ended up 2 feet, and the second leg has endangered your opponents safety. That's serious foul play and I am sending you off.
Or I might as @es1 suggests just say sending you off for serious foul play and show the red

In other news, also had a caution for a reckless foul that 'won the ball' and when I agreed with the player he started with his captain, he said I won the ball.
I just said to him, just because you won the ball doesn't make it a good tackle.
Tbh it was close to a red. I explained to him It involved 2 feet, (his saving grace for me was that) the feet were not raised and all of the contact was with the ball, not the player,
and the challenge was reckless. Had he not won the ball and caught the player it would have been red for sure. And he seemed to accept that then.
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Sometimes I go with "the only thing I had to do is decide on the colour of the card" when I'm showing a yellow for one of these types of tackles. Seems to help calm them down a bit.
 
Ben448844 said:
I don't think benches and players are horrified anymore, the clampdown on dangerous tackling (whether ball has been taken or not) has been in effect for years. They just pretend they are and act hard done to to try and reduce the punishment that they know is coming. Did it myself as a player many times. Always used the "i won the ball ref" but in reality I know I'm in trouble under modern laws, im just trying to reduce the punishment and get the ref to be lenient on me next time.
Click to expand...

Had Lymington's bench to deal with as an AR a couple of seasons back. The worst behaved dugout I've ever experienced as a referee.
 
markref said:
I had a very similar tackle last weekend and went yellow. It was right in front of the away bench and they were horrified when I cautioned their player because he won the ball, but his other leg caught the opponent. I didn't think the contact with the second leg was enough to justify UEF but it definitely needed dealing with. He got a yellow and a serious b*****king, and all the players thought that was excessive. I only had the one view and thought yellow straight away - I'm with Rusty on this because on first view it doesn't look that bad because although the leg is straight it's nowhere near the opponent. In an incident like this you tend to watch the front leg because that's the one that's most likely to really do damage. It's easy to miss the following leg which can also hurt if it catches the player wrong. It would have been interesting if I'd had a slo-mo replay to fall back on! The only thing in his favour was that with the leg bent and not straight at the opponent it isn't as likely to cause serious injury, although it would still hurt. Red can easily be justified.

As One and socal lurker have said, it's at least a yellow - I think it's the definitive orange card. The context is incredibly important in incidents like this, because if the tempo is raised this is the type of challenge which can lose you a game, so needs to be dealt with more firmly in feistier games.
Click to expand...
I think 'definitive orange' is a classic oxymoron isn't it?!;)
 
Some years back (when they used to do things like this), USSF put out a memo, which might have been called "But I Got the Ball!" It was solely addressed to that myth. I knew of refs who copied off several to hand to outraged coaches after games.
 
My immediate reaction was a red and I fail to see the justification in those who say yellow. However, I had a one bad tackle in the game last weekend and it was a lunging straight leg studs showing attempt to get the ball but woefully mistimed. In fact it was the OP challenge, albeit the tackler missed the ball and caught the side of the foot of the winger. Player wasn't injured. Judging by the criteria I used when looking at the OP clip, I should have red carded, but there was something about the mistiming element that I found myself yellowing. I am therefore not consistent.
 
Viking said:
My immediate reaction was a red and I fail to see the justification in those who say yellow. However, I had a one bad tackle in the game last weekend and it was a lunging straight leg studs showing attempt to get the ball but woefully mistimed. In fact it was the OP challenge, albeit the tackler missed the ball and caught the side of the foot of the winger. Player wasn't injured. Judging by the criteria I used when looking at the OP clip, I should have red carded, but there was something about the mistiming element that I found myself yellowing. I am therefore not consistent.
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I think this is a symptom of @Big Cat philosophy as a an element of doubt makes us hit the yellow. Somehow in our minds wrongly cautioning someone is better than wrongly sending someone off so we, ahem, air on the side of (a) caution.
 
JamesL said:
I think this is a symptom of @Big Cat philosophy as a an element of doubt makes us hit the yellow. Somehow in our minds wrongly cautioning someone is better than wrongly sending someone off so we, ahem, air on the side of (a) caution.
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I wouldn't go that far. It's reasonable doubt that I'm looking for
Like I say, it's no good saying, 'oh yeh, it looked yellow on first viewing, but now I think it's red'. We all get one chance and one angle. If there's reasonable doubt, slow it down, have a strong word and make it publicly obvious that the culprit has been considered for dismissal. I'm talking 8/10 on that UEFA type scale. If the game is already slipping, get rid because the temperature of the game is supporting evidence (and a reason to act now)
 
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