A&H

Liverpool vs Arsenal (Craig Pawson)

...it's fairly obvious that you can generate more strength by clenching your fist at that point. It's a valid point if the contact is led by the hand/fist, but where it's led by the forearm, the closed/open fist guideline is misleading.
Sorry, is that meant as an argument for not being SFP?
 
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Sorry, is that meant as an argument for not being SFP?
Yes. If you're going to push an opponent to shield the ball, it makes perfect sense to try and do so with as much strength as you can generate. If closing your fist helps you generate a stronger forearm push, it is a perfectly natural, not-SFP action to do so.

if you didn't cut out the rest of my post, it's fairly obvious that everything I've written is predicated off the basis that I think any hand-to-face contact in this is a) fairly incidental and b) the result of inattentiveness rather than malice. Given that, I was simply explaining a possible reason why a closed fist doesn't automatically = SFP. If all you're going to do is selectively quote every occasion I say "closed fist" and then try to argue that automatically means SFP, you may as well just leave me and James to continue the discussion we were already having.
 
Take any image or video away. Start with a clear head. Now I tell you someone struck me in the face with a clinched fist. What is the picture in your head? The tool verse weapon guideline is for that case.
I think you misunderstand, I'm not talking about a punch. We normally see this applied to aerial challenges, where the elbow/forearm is used as a tool or weapon. It's not just the clenched fist to the face, if zi look at what he is doing here, he is using the arm as a weapon in the challenge.
I can see where Graeme is coming from but I think you misunderstand why I am referring to the tool/weapon, the fist in the face is a red herring.

There's a difference between "saying it's OK" and where I stand.

I'm perfectly happy with the yellow - it's careless and inattentive. He means to carry out a forceful push in the chest (careless at least) and isn't paying enough attention so ends up catching the player in the chin (lack of attention for the consequences of his actions). With those in mind, no problem with a yellow card at all.

What I'm not seeing there is any real risk to the opponent's safety, excessive force or brutality (so no SFP) and I don't believe it's a pre-meditated strike to his head either (so no VC).

It's absolutely not OK - so a YC and FK against him is correct. I don't see any real argument for going more severe than that.
Think we are looking at this differently, perhaps. Can see your point of view, but to me it looks cleverly disguised.. Or maybe I am giving Mane too much credit 😂.
I just don't like this type of challenge, maybe the clenched fist is leading me astray in my Assessment but I still think there is no need to lead with the arm/fist like that, he can win that challege fairly, or at least present less risk to his opponent in the manner of his challenge
 
I think you misunderstand, I'm not talking about a punch. We normally see this applied to aerial challenges, where the elbow/forearm is used as a tool or weapon. It's not just the clenched fist to the face, if zi look at what he is doing here, he is using the arm as a weapon in the challenge.
I can see where Graeme is coming from but I think you misunderstand why I am referring to the tool/weapon, the fist in the face is a red herring.


Think we are looking at this differently, perhaps. Can see your point of view, but to me it looks cleverly disguised.. Or maybe I am giving Mane too much credit 😂.
I just don't like this type of challenge, maybe the clenched fist is leading me astray in my Assessment but I still think there is no need to lead with the arm/fist like that, he can win that challege fairly, or at least present less risk to his opponent in the manner of his challenge
Mane is pretty much in possession of the ball - he's got his body in between the ball and the opponent. In that position, spreading your arms and levering off an opponent who is trying to get round you is 100% standard play for me. The only reason this has become an issue for me is because he's not attentive enough about the exact position of the opponent relative to his arms, I have no problem with the intent behind what he's trying to do.

Put it this way - if he does the same action, but only makes contact with his opponents chest and doesn't slide up to the chin, what is your call there?

And obviously, if you're suggesting this is a cleverly disguised act of deliberate VC, then fair enough - that's a subjective call only you can make.
 
Mane is pretty much in possession of the ball - he's got his body in between the ball and the opponent. In that position, spreading your arms and levering off an opponent who is trying to get round you is 100% standard play for me. The only reason this has become an issue for me is because he's not attentive enough about the exact position of the opponent relative to his arms, I have no problem with the intent behind what he's trying to do.

Put it this way - if he does the same action, but only makes contact with his opponents chest and doesn't slide up to the chin, what is your call there?

And obviously, if you're suggesting this is a cleverly disguised act of deliberate VC, then fair enough - that's a subjective call only you can make.
And VAR,...

He's got his body between the ball and the opponent because he's pushed / struck the opponent.

Dare I say it, his arms are in an unnatural position for "shielding the ball"?


Yes. If you're going to push an opponent to shield the ball, it makes perfect sense to try and do so with as much strength as you can generate. If closing your fist helps you generate a stronger forearm push, it is a perfectly natural, not-SFP action to do so.

if you didn't cut out the rest of my post, it's fairly obvious that everything I've written is predicated off the basis that I think any hand-to-face contact in this is a) fairly incidental and b) the result of inattentiveness rather than malice. Given that, I was simply explaining a possible reason why a closed fist doesn't automatically = SFP. If all you're going to do is selectively quote every occasion I say "closed fist" and then try to argue that automatically means SFP, you may as well just leave me and James to continue the discussion we were already having.
Pushing an opponent is an offence, even without strength. That's not shielding the ball.

Am I missing something here?
 
And VAR,...

He's got his body between the ball and the opponent because he's pushed / struck the opponent.

Dare I say it, his arms are in an unnatural position for "shielding the ball"?



Pushing an opponent is an offence, even without strength. That's not shielding the ball.

Am I missing something here?
Yes, because you're clearly missing the post where I clarify that I am not suggesting there is no offence.

I'm suggesting that I believe FK and yellow card is sufficient punishment. Nothing you've written in this post I've quoted comes close to justification for going from yellow --> red.
 
Yes, because you're clearly missing the post where I clarify that I am not suggesting there is no offence.

I'm suggesting that I believe FK and yellow card is sufficient punishment. Nothing you've written in this post I've quoted comes close to justification for going from yellow --> red.
So it is a push (an offence) and not "shielding the ball" (not an offence)? That perhaps explains my confusion. So why does it "make sense" to "push" with your fist if it's an offence anyway as you're less likely to get away with it as "shielding the ball"?
 
So it is a push (an offence) and not "shielding the ball" (not an offence)? That perhaps explains my confusion. So why does it "make sense" to "push" with your fist if it's an offence anyway as you're less likely to get away with it as "shielding the ball"?
It might be because I'm tired, but you're going to have to bear with me here, as I literally can't parse that last sentence. The way I read it, you're asking me to explain what Mane was thinking in that exact split second? But I must be misunderstanding, because that would be a ridiculous thing to ask of anyone in the world other than Sadio Mane. And I'm just a random L5 referee on an internet forum.

Football is not a static game. Players aren't kind enough to stand still and commit a single obvious offence in isolation so that we can nice and neatly penalise them. Things happen together, at the same time, or in grey areas between the actions defined by neat words like "push" and "shield". But OK, since you seem inexplicably keen to pin my words down exactly, let's try to run through what happened in super-slow-motion.

My opinion, as I'm sure I've clearly explained multiple times by now, is that the incident we're looking at appears to be a genuine attempt to shield the ball from an opponent. Call that the title or the headline for this whole discussion. As part of that process he stepped across the opponent and put his arms out. He's felt the presence of the opponent trying to get through the space occupied by his arms, so has pushed back into his chest. Although I consider that a fairly normal part of shielding, it is possible to commit a careless foul at this point by doing so in too strong a manner. So let's say that we might have enough so far for a FK only.

I'm no bio-mechanical expert, but I think it's legitimate for a fist to close in order for him to exert/be ready to exert more strength if the player trying to get through his shield does so by pushing into his outstretched arms. So pushing occurs - and in doing so, his arm rides up the defenders chest and catches him in the chin. Mane should have been paying more attention to where his hands were going - so by failing to do so, opens himself up to a caution for reckless play. Shielding in a reckless manner, pushing recklessly - whichever you prefer, still only a yellow card. The semantics of what exactly you call the offence, that you seem determined to pin me down on, are entirely irrelevant

And for me, that's where the description ends. Thank you for listening to my TED talk...
 
Seeing the Mane ”mane” for the first time.

There’s contact to the head. Is it negligable? No.

The obvious simple answer is RC.

However, that Mane is attempting to shield the ball, and the hand contacts the chest first... makes a yellow also justifiable.

Sadly this is one of those incidents where a more theatrical response from the fouled player could have ”helped” the referee - if the ref wanted to ”sell” a RC.

Wider context: Mane is arguably the most important player in the league currently so any ref wants to be 1000% before a RC.
 
There’s contact to the head. Is it negligable? No.
That only applies when not challenging for the ball though.

Oh and I think the theatrics were there. I had a feeling if it was in the 80+ minute, he would have been gone.
 
The thing that I'm surprised no-one brought up is the late challenge a few minutes earlier from him that easily deserved a yellow card and didn't get one. Had he been carded for that, he either would have seen a second yellow for this one, or would have been successfully warned off it before it even happened.
 
Seeing the Mane ”mane” for the first time.

There’s contact to the head. Is it negligable? No.

The obvious simple answer is RC.

However, that Mane is attempting to shield the ball, and the hand contacts the chest first... makes a yellow also justifiable.

Sadly this is one of those incidents where a more theatrical response from the fouled player could have ”helped” the referee - if the ref wanted to ”sell” a RC.

Wider context: Mane is arguably the most important player in the league currently so any ref wants to be 1000% before a RC.
Have you thought through what you're saying with that last sentence? It's a long time since Rooney wasn't allowed to be sent off.
 
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