A&H

Liverpool vs Arsenal (Craig Pawson)

Jtpetherick1

Well-Known Member
People may want to discuss the potential red card, eventual yellow for Mane early on. But I really really hope Pawson he gets the credit he deserves for the advantage in the Liverpool equaliser. So easy in that position (with no advantage immediately apparent) to go for the whistle. Bravo!
 
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I'd have been ok with red or yellow for mane, not nailed on VC but close.

The advantage was decent, he played a similar one a few mins before from the same area as well.
 
Shocking decision not to give a red. Mane floored Bellerin before it and seconds later he essentially punches Tierney in the face. The camera angle shows the intention to hit Tierney in the face, god knows what VAR was doing.

Bet VAR will get involved with a handball penalty later on 😂
 
Does the AR need to flag there?

Empty stadium, comms, blatant foul, equidistant between ref and AR?

I’m not flagging that. “Foul” in the comms yes. But the flag is surely an unnecessary distraction.

Question: are too flight ARs trained to flag if advantage is possible? (I doubt it)
 
Think it's expected the AR gives that foul. I don't think it's an obvious advantage initially either so a flag is spot on for me.
 
People may want to discuss the potential red card, eventual yellow for Mane early on. But I really really hope Pawson he gets the credit he deserves for the advantage in the Liverpool equaliser. So easy in that position (with no advantage immediately apparent) to go for the whistle. Bravo!
Of course he won’t get the credit he deserves for that, but if he makes any kind of mistake that’ll be all the pundits talk about after the game!
 
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Does the AR need to flag there?

Empty stadium, comms, blatant foul, equidistant between ref and AR?

I’m not flagging that. “Foul” in the comms yes. But the flag is surely an unnecessary distraction.

Question: are too flight ARs trained to flag if advantage is possible? (I doubt it)

The Magic Book, in the practical guidance, says the AR should not signal for an offence without first determining that the R would not have played advantage.

Think it's expected the AR gives that foul. I don't think it's an obvious advantage initially either so a flag is spot on for me.

At that level, they are a likely having expected communications through the coms. AR may have said something in the comm; or the R may have said something to the AR.
 
59min
AR2 is rattled.
Obvious offside, waits until after the one on one is dead to flag for offside on the move.
I think he’s had too many penguins!
 
AR's been left hanging three times now, with Pawson giving correct but difficult advantages all three times. Don't think the AR is flagging too quickly and they're having a good game as a team
 
Agree with Ryan on this one.. Open hand = tool. Closed fist = weapon
That is when you use your hand to strike. In this case the strike was with the forearm.

The only thing that could save him here is the fact that it is done it in the process of challenging for the ball and it is more of a forced push than a strike. What makes it bad is that it is to the face/neck. Definetaly an orange for me.
 
That is when you use your hand to strike. In this case the strike was with the forearm.

The only thing that could save him here is the fact that it is done it in the process of challenging for the ball and it is more of a forced push than a strike. What makes it bad is that it is to the face/neck. Definetaly an orange for me.
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Think you will (hopefully) see from this angle here Mane's clenched fist clearly striking his opponent in the face.
I was going to say the force used is debatable, but, for me this is a clear, clenched fist strking/pushing/call it what you want directly in the face.
If your intention is to push or hand off an opponent you are going to use an open palm. I cant see anything to bail Mane out of this one except that perhaps he hasn't punched his opponent boxer style, however he has forced his fist into his opponents face.
Red Card for me.
 
As we all know, stills are rubbish for this kind of thing. If you see the angle @JamesL has posted but in motion rather than still, it's clear that the contact is with the Arsenal player's chest initially, his arm then slides up in the process of trying to lever him off.

He can't use his palm because of the angle the other player is at, you'd need to dislocate your shoulder to manage that. Yes, maybe he could have used the back of an open hand, but it's fairly obvious that you can generate more strength by clenching your fist at that point. It's a valid point if the contact is led by the hand/fist, but where it's led by the forearm, the closed/open fist guideline is misleading.
 
As we all know, stills are rubbish for this kind of thing. If you see the angle @JamesL has posted but in motion rather than still, it's clear that the contact is with the Arsenal player's chest initially, his arm then slides up in the process of trying to lever him off.

He can't use his palm because of the angle the other player is at, you'd need to dislocate your shoulder to manage that. Yes, maybe he could have used the back of an open hand, but it's fairly obvious that you can generate more strength by clenching your fist at that point. It's a valid point if the contact is led by the hand/fist, but where it's led by the forearm, the closed/open fist guideline is misleading.
If you are going to lead with your fore arm, and clenched fist, you need to be taking more care so as to avoid inadvertently sliding up your opponents chest if that's where you make contact.
I too general dislike stills being used as the only evidence as they don't always tell a true story, but they are useful for showing the point(s) of contact.
Let's say I agree, the initial point of contact is the chest, are you saying that anything after that is okay (so in this case a fist to the face), so you nullify the fact he has struck/pushed his opponent in the face because that was not his intention?
Not sure about having to dislocate his hands etc. There are a plethora of other ways to enter this challenge, and leading with the forrarm/fist is the most unacceptable of the lot.
 
If you are going to lead with your fore arm, and clenched fist, you need to be taking more care so as to avoid inadvertently sliding up your opponents chest if that's where you make contact.
I too general dislike stills being used as the only evidence as they don't always tell a true story, but they are useful for showing the point(s) of contact.
Let's say I agree, the initial point of contact is the chest, are you saying that anything after that is okay (so in this case a fist to the face), so you nullify the fact he has struck/pushed his opponent in the face because that was not his intention?
Not sure about having to dislocate his hands etc. There are a plethora of other ways to enter this challenge, and leading with the forrarm/fist is the most unacceptable of the lot.
There's a difference between "saying it's OK" and where I stand.

I'm perfectly happy with the yellow - it's careless and inattentive. He means to carry out a forceful push in the chest (careless at least) and isn't paying enough attention so ends up catching the player in the chin (lack of attention for the consequences of his actions). With those in mind, no problem with a yellow card at all.

What I'm not seeing there is any real risk to the opponent's safety, excessive force or brutality (so no SFP) and I don't believe it's a pre-meditated strike to his head either (so no VC).

It's absolutely not OK - so a YC and FK against him is correct. I don't see any real argument for going more severe than that.
 
View attachment 4587
Think you will (hopefully) see from this angle here Mane's clenched fist clearly striking his opponent in the face.
I was going to say the force used is debatable, but, for me this is a clear, clenched fist strking/pushing/call it what you want directly in the face.
If your intention is to push or hand off an opponent you are going to use an open palm. I cant see anything to bail Mane out of this one except that perhaps he hasn't punched his opponent boxer style, however he has forced his fist into his opponents face.
Red Card for me.
Take any image or video away. Start with a clear head. Now I tell you someone struck me in the face with a clinched fist. What is the picture in your head? The tool verse weapon guideline is for that case.

Yes his hand made contact with the face, consider the point of contact on the hand, the direction of the movement and the force at the time of contact. The first point of contact as described by @GraemeS . I still think the use of that guideline in this incident is a misapplication of it.

Having said that I have no issue with a send off here. Orange for me so I accept yellow or red.
 
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