Drop ball position after hitting overhead wire

I often referee on a 3G pitch which has a wire crossing the centre of the 11 a side pitch, which is used to hold a net to split up the pitch when used for 5 a side games. The sports centre won't take it down for 11 a side matches.

I always brief both teams about what will happen. "If it skims the wire but keeps going in more or less the same direction = Play on. If its hits it and drops dead or careens off, drop ball (or restart if happened from a restart)". Fair for both sides, nobody has moaned about this. I have always followed the LOTG for drop ball location, and done this where the ball bit the wire ("outside agent").

From Law 8: "In all other cases, the referee drops the ball for one player of the team that last touched the ball at the position where it last touched a player, an outside agent or, as outlined in Law 9.1, a match official"

Yesterday I heard a manager say that he thought the dropped ball should take place at the place where it had been kicked from. This was from a defending manager where the opposition where playing a lot of long balls from their half over the top of the defenders. So the dropped ball was 10-20 yards further up the field. My counter is that if the ball hadn't hit the wire the defenders would have all been caught out as they were all pushed up too high, the quick attackers would have run onto the ball (from onside positions) and had a clear run at the goal keeper. By hitting the wire the attack was broken down and the defenders had chance to get back and get into shape.

So I didn't think either team was particularly disadvantaged by the situation. Yes the attackers were a bit further up the field, but their initial attack had broken down, and the defenders had time to get back into a good position.

Interested in hearing your thoughts.

You're right in law so nothing for the manager to debate with you.

Was he actually just saying what he thinks the law should say or was he questioning your knowledge of it?

As you wrote, Law 8 is pretty clear about where the DB takes place. (But you are already making stuff up when you say on a restart the restart is retaken--nothing in the Laws supports that. So once you start making up new rules, tough to say where to stop.)

Kes said:

You're right in law so nothing for the manager to debate with you.

Was he actually just saying what he thinks the law should say or was he questioning your knowledge of it?

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The former. He didn’t say it to me, so not questioning me. I heard it later. Just made me think about the pros and cons.

socal lurker said:

As you wrote, Law 8 is pretty clear about where the DB takes place. (But you are already making stuff up when you say on a restart the restart is retaken--nothing in the Laws supports that. So once you start making up new rules, tough to say where to stop.)

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True. This occurred at a thrown in, straight into the wire. At the time seemed right thing to just retake. But on re-reading not the correct thing to do.

Hmm, a tricky one as normally an outside agent is on the ground when the ball hits them. Taking the law literally it is quite difficult to drop the ball at the position it last touched an outside agent, unless you have very long arms

Speaking as an observer I don't think I'd be too concerned whether it was dropped below where it hit the wire or retaken. Spirit of the law and all that.

Easy answer to this. Take the bloody wire down. Cause so many issues. You agree one thing and then when it doesn't suit anymore the whinging starts.

I always explain that we're playing on when it hits the wire to everyone before the game and I shout play on every time it hits. As long as your clear before the game starts there can be no arguments. I used to do drop balls for it but there were games where it hit the wire loads of times and the game was forced stopping which nobody wanted so I reverted to playing on.

Depending on the competition and if you explain how you're playing it at the start then retaking the restart is fine by me. Hitting those wires is one of most annoying things in 3G.
Played a game the other day on a Sunday and the ref explained at the beginning that a restart that hits the wires is retaken. May not be letter of the law but everyone was fine with it and good match control when it happened. Pitch didn't even have corner flags so tbh the ref could easily have refused the game. All credit to him he made do and 22 old uns got a run out!

Note after posting : as Social Lurker points out below flags are not a problem at grassroots. However I actually meant to write corner posts!

afronaut81 said:

Depending on the competition and if you explain how you're playing it at the start then retaking the restart is fine by me. Hitting those wires is one of most annoying things in 3G.
Played a game the other day on a Sunday and the ref explained at the beginning that a restart that hits the wires is retaken. May not be letter of the law but everyone was fine with it and good match control when it happened. Pitch didn't even have corner flags so tbh the ref could easily have refused the game. All credit to him he made do and 22 old uns got a run out!

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And the reality is, that teams playing at these types of facilities are playing for fun. The wires typically tend to be around the middle of the park, so highly unlikely to be connected to any game changing incident.

If it's a choice between playing the game or not at this level and having some common sense, then I know what I'm doing

Ben448844 said:

I always explain that we're playing on when it hits the wire to everyone before the game and I shout play on every time it hits. As long as your clear before the game starts there can be no arguments. I used to do drop balls for it but there were games where it hit the wire loads of times and the game was forced stopping which nobody wanted so I reverted to playing on.

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IMHO, any competition that plays on those fields should have consistent rules, communicated to referees and teams, on how contact should be handled. I agree the most important thing is having a rule and following it.

The defunct USSF Advice to Referees addressed this because there are so many multi-use fields with issues here in the US. this is what it said, which to me made a lot of practical sense:

1.8 DEALING WITH APPURTENANCES TO THE FIELD AND OUTSIDE AGENTS

(a) Required appurtenances These are the goals, corner flags, and flagposts required by Law 1. Contact between these appurtenances and the ball or players is a normal part of play and requires no special consideration in determining the restart. In accordance with the Law, the restart is based on which team last played the ball. The referee and any assistant referee on the field are also considered to be part of the field of play.

(b) Non-regulation appurtenances (see 1.7) These include superfluous items attached to the goal frame (such as the uprights on combination soccer/football goals) and not generally subject to movement. If the ball contacts these items, it is deemed to be automatically out of play and the restart is in accordance with the Law, based on which team last played the ball.

(c) Pre-existing conditions These are things on or above the field which are not described in Law 1 but are deemed safe and not generally subject to movement. These include trees overhanging the field, wires running above the field, and covers on sprinkling or draining systems. They do not affect one team more adversely than the other and are considered to be a part of the field. If the ball leaves the field after contact with any item considered under the local ground rules of the field to be a pre-existing condition, the restart is in accordance with the Law, based on which team last played the ball. (Check with the competition for any local ground rules.) Note: The difference between non-regulation appurtenances and pre-existing conditions is that, if the ball makes contact with something like uprights or crossbar superstructure, it is ruled out of play even if the contact results in the ball remaining on the field. Where there is a pre-existing condition (such as an overhanging tree limb), the ball remains in play even if there is contact, as long as the ball itself remains on the field. Referees must be fully aware of and enforce any rules of the competition authority or field owner regarding non-regulation appurtenances.

afronaut81 said:

Pitch didn't even have corner flags so tbh the ref could easily have refused the game. All credit to him he made do and 22 old uns got a run out!

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Disagree that he had a right to refuse the game. The guidelines at the end of the Laws state:

This is especially true for the lower levels of football where it may not always be possible for the Law to be strictly applied.
For example, unless there are safety issues, the referee should allow a game to start/continue if:
• one or more corner flags is missing
• there is a minor inaccuracy with the markings on the field of play such as the corner area, centre circle etc.
• the goal posts/crossbar are not white
In such cases, the referee should, with the agreement of the teams, play/ continue the match and must submit a report to the appropriate authorities.

socal lurker said:

Disagree that he had a right to refuse the game. The guidelines at the end of the Laws state:

This is especially true for the lower levels of football where it may not always be possible for the Law to be strictly applied.
For example, unless there are safety issues, the referee should allow a game to start/continue if:
• one or more corner flags is missing
• there is a minor inaccuracy with the markings on the field of play such as the corner area, centre circle etc.
• the goal posts/crossbar are not white
In such cases, the referee should, with the agreement of the teams, play/ continue the match and must submit a report to the appropriate authorities.

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Oh I meant to say corner posts!

We literally had to put spare shoes on the corners so he had a visual aid

AJPeacock said:

I often referee on a 3G pitch which has a wire crossing the centre of the 11 a side pitch, which is used to hold a net to split up the pitch when used for 5 a side games. The sports centre won't take it down for 11 a side matches.

I always brief both teams about what will happen. "If it skims the wire but keeps going in more or less the same direction = Play on. If its hits it and drops dead or careens off, drop ball (or restart if happened from a restart)". Fair for both sides, nobody has moaned about this. I have always followed the LOTG for drop ball location, and done this where the ball bit the wire ("outside agent").

From Law 8: "In all other cases, the referee drops the ball for one player of the team that last touched the ball at the position where it last touched a player, an outside agent or, as outlined in Law 9.1, a match official"

Yesterday I heard a manager say that he thought the dropped ball should take place at the place where it had been kicked from. This was from a defending manager where the opposition where playing a lot of long balls from their half over the top of the defenders. So the dropped ball was 10-20 yards further up the field. My counter is that if the ball hadn't hit the wire the defenders would have all been caught out as they were all pushed up too high, the quick attackers would have run onto the ball (from onside positions) and had a clear run at the goal keeper. By hitting the wire the attack was broken down and the defenders had chance to get back and get into shape.

So I didn't think either team was particularly disadvantaged by the situation. Yes the attackers were a bit further up the field, but their initial attack had broken down, and the defenders had time to get back into a good position.

Interested in hearing your thoughts.

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If you are going to sometime follow the law (change direction) and sometimes not (skimmed), why not make it similar to when the ball hits the referee. At least you are consistent with the spirit of what to do when the ball hits 'something from outside' and how to interpret if it has an impact on play.

one said:

If you are going to sometime follow the law (change direction) and sometimes not (skimmed), why not make it similar to when the ball hits the referee. At least you are consistent with the spirit of what to do when the ball hits 'something from outside' and how to interpret if it has an impact on play.

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I can see the logic to that. But, in most cases when it hits the wire it drops dead to the ground and I am struggling to see how any of the three options given under the 'touching a match official' part fits.

Kes said:

You're right in law so nothing for the manager to debate with you.

Was he actually just saying what he thinks the law should say or was he questioning your knowledge of it?

Click to expand...

AJPeacock said:

The former. He didn’t say it to me, so not questioning me. I heard it later. Just made me think about the pros and cons.

Click to expand...

The old rule, before the new DB change at the start of the season, would have been a contested DB at the point of interference - so he was out of date