A&H

VAR Farce

one said:
When you have an unofficial referee (a parent or a mate reffing) the expectations are a lot lower and the mass are more more accepting of mistakes. But once an official is in the middle, the expectations are a lot higher.

Once EPL put VAR in place it set the expectations a lot higher than what it's currently delivering. Getting a few more decisions right is not good enough.
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But the most frustrating thing is that the tools to get even more decisions right are there. The procedure that exists has been arrived at through lots of testing and trials. And while there are still things I'd change (the lack of transparency to those watching in the stadium at least), I still really don't understand how the English referees are allowed to come up with this entirely different system that deliberately ignores one of the tools that the protocol says should be used. And it's giving VAR a worse reputation than is necessary.
 
The Referee Store
GraemeS said:
But the most frustrating thing is that the tools to get even more decisions right are there. The procedure that exists has been arrived at through lots of testing and trials. And while there are still things I'd change (the lack of transparency to those watching in the stadium at least), I still really don't understand how the English referees are allowed to come up with this entirely different system that deliberately ignores one of the tools that the protocol says should be used. And it's giving VAR a worse reputation than is necessary.
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It seems very odd. It's like the PL have forgotten that we all know they have VAR to use.

If mistakes were wrong before then you can come out with 'the referee's view was blocked' or 'he misread what happened at full speed', both of which can obviously happen.

But when the same mistakes are being made with VAR then understandably more questions are being asked because there's no justification for still getting it wrong.

Of course, there are always going to be some subjective decisions that are close and if there was the odd penalty VAR had missed where the consensus was it should have been given then I could understand - rugby still has that sometimes now. But with the PL it's missing penalties virtually every single week and there doesn't seem to be any appetite amongst the PL/referees/PGMOL to change this.
 
Ryanj91 said:
Apart from the blatent penalty he decided to miss in the 6th minute?

The Saka simulation was pretty poor. Wasn't a dive as there was contact but it wasn't enough for a penalty. Play on!
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He missed the shirt pull on Socratis, but not easy to see real time and that is where VAR should be helping. The Saka incident was absolute clear simulation, he intentionally moved his right leg out to initiate the contact and then flung himself down. Outstanding decision by Mike Dean, and remember he only got to see that once from one angle and immediately signalled it.

I thought it was an outstanding performance, and for me he is still as good as any referee we have in England. Obviously not as young and mobile as the likes of Oliver, Taylor and Pawson, but his decision making and control of the game is up there with all of them.
 
RustyRef said:
He missed the shirt pull on Socratis, but not easy to see real time and that is where VAR should be helping. The Saka incident was absolute clear simulation, he intentionally moved his right leg out to initiate the contact and then flung himself down. Outstanding decision by Mike Dean, and remember he only got to see that once from one angle and immediately signalled it.

I thought it was an outstanding performance, and for me he is still as good as any referee we have in England. Obviously not as young and mobile as the likes of Oliver, Taylor and Pawson, but his decision making and control of the game is up there with all of them.
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I'd beg to differ, but every time I say he's past his best, MD goes and puts on a class act :confused:
He's had a really good start to the campaign
 
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Seen the shirt pull now and obviously no one saw it in real time! I've given penalties for that to the bewilderment of all bar 2 of the penalty area players. The shirt puller and the one being fouled know the score!! We got away with one!!! Still think MD had a great game. Not sure of the card count but i'm sure he'd been taking tips from RefChat!! ;)
 
onthebrink said:
It seems very odd. It's like the PL have forgotten that we all know they have VAR to use.

If mistakes were wrong before then you can come out with 'the referee's view was blocked' or 'he misread what happened at full speed', both of which can obviously happen.

But when the same mistakes are being made with VAR then understandably more questions are being asked because there's no justification for still getting it wrong.

Of course, there are always going to be some subjective decisions that are close and if there was the odd penalty VAR had missed where the consensus was it should have been given then I could understand - rugby still has that sometimes now. But with the PL it's missing penalties virtually every single week and there doesn't seem to be any appetite amongst the PL/referees/PGMOL to change this.
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Anyone watch MNF and see Jamie C with his VR goggles?

He showed that the ref in the UTD LIV game couldn't possibly see the foul on Origi.

Therefore, surely.... SURELY... it was a clear and obvious error as he couldn't actually see the foul?!

That is not re-refereeing the game, that is picking up on the referee's view being obstructed.
 
Ryanj91 said:
Anyone watch MNF and see Jamie C with his VR goggles?

He showed that the ref in the UTD LIV game couldn't possibly see the foul on Origi.

Therefore, surely.... SURELY... it was a clear and obvious error as he couldn't actually see the foul?!

That is not re-refereeing the game, that is picking up on the referee's view being obstructed.
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Yes - it is entirely what VAR was introduced for, a situation where it was difficult for the referee to see in real time but was clear with the benefit of replays.

Roy Keane was saying on Sky that it wasn't a terrible error by Atkinson because his view was blocked but that is missing the point - VAR's question is 'did the referee make a clear and obvious error?' rather than 'Should the referee have made a clear and obvious error?' or 'is it understandable why the referee made a clear and obvious error?'
 
onthebrink said:
Yes - it is entirely what VAR was introduced for, a situation where it was difficult for the referee to see in real time but was clear with the benefit of replays.

Roy Keane was saying on Sky that it wasn't a terrible error by Atkinson because his view was blocked but that is missing the point - VAR's question is 'did the referee make a clear and obvious error?' rather than 'Should the referee have made a clear and obvious error?' or 'is it understandable why the referee made a clear and obvious error?'
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You are part way there.
  • was that a 'clear and obvious error'? if the answer is no then there is a second question
  • was that a ‘serious missed incident'?

If this foul falls under the definition of ‘serious missed incident' can be debated though. both in terms of being serious and in term of 'missed'. For me if the referee does actually see it (blocked view or behind play) and it leads to a goal then it does.

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one said:
You are part way there.
  • was that a 'clear and obvious error'? if the answer is no then there is a second question
  • was that a ‘serious missed incident'?

If this foul falls under the definition of ‘serious missed incident' can be debated though. both in terms of being serious and in term of 'missed'. For me if the referee does actually see it (blocked view or behind play) and it leads to a goal then it does.

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I don't think serious missed incident applies to something like this - it is more regarding violent conduct off the ball, etc.
 
What was the Genk first goal ruled out for?? Looked a good header to me and i couldn't hear the sound??? What did he scrub it off for??
 
Sheffields Finest said:
What was the Genk first goal ruled out for?? Looked a good header to me and i couldn't hear the sound??? What did he scrub it off for??
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Offside in the build up. Sound wouldn't have helped as the commentators were clueless, despite the fact the referee had his arm straight up in the air they were convinced it had been disallowed for a foul.
 
RustyRef said:
Offside in the build up. Sound wouldn't have helped as the commentators were clueless, despite the fact the referee had his arm straight up in the air they were convinced it had been disallowed for a foul.
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At the time it was offside it was only a promising attack. The delayed flag was not designed for this situation. Looks like AR's are stretching it. Why put players and spectators through the elation and disappointment ?

He did the same thing again in a much less attacking situation in 40th minute. And delayed flag in 90th when Mane was 2m offside. Shows lack of confidence.
 
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one said:
You are part way there.
  • was that a 'clear and obvious error'? if the answer is no then there is a second question
  • was that a ‘serious missed incident'?

If this foul falls under the definition of ‘serious missed incident' can be debated though. both in terms of being serious and in term of 'missed'. For me if the referee does actually see it (blocked view or behind play) and it leads to a goal then it does.

View attachment 3788
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  • was that a 'clear and obvious error'? if the answer is no then there is a second question
  • was that a ‘serious missed incident'?
You've made up a sequential approach there that isn't in the law.

Not that it matters. No attempt to explain how VAR should work can explain how it's being done.

I think EPL refs have a sweep going, on who's going to make such an awful decision that even VAR can't ignore it.
 
bloovee said:
  • was that a 'clear and obvious error'? if the answer is no then there is a second question
  • was that a ‘serious missed incident'?
You've made up a sequential approach there that isn't in the law.

Not that it matters. No attempt to explain how VAR should work can explain how it's being done.

I think EPL refs have a sweep going, on who's going to make such an awful decision that even VAR can't ignore it.
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True . But you picked something that would not matter to the outcome. You can ask the questions in either sequence but the outcome is the same. It only makes sense to eliminate the more common one first.
 
I just want to praise VAR with the first decision it made which overruled the referee!

The Southampton Red Card

Congratulations 🎊
 
VAR doesn't make 'decisions' or overrule referees. But I can see why you think that way with how EPL have implemented VAR.
 
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