A&H

Penalty shoot out

J

jertzee

Member
Ok,had a penalty shoot out with no neutral AR's.

Decided not to use the club AR's help, but to stand near the edge of the goal area / 6 yard box where I could keep an eye on the goalie moving based on the noise of the kicker who I also watched on his run up.

All going well until one penalty crashed against the underside of the bar, went mostly over the line,came up,hit the bar again,back mainly over the line before bouncing out.

I couldn't be 100% sure the whole ball was over so did not signal a goal. I was 95% sure but not totally convinced as I was not standing on the goal line.

At this point both the kicker's side goalie AND the defending side's goalie said the ball crossed the line.
I asked them if the whole ball had crossed the line,making it clear it had to be the whole ball and both nodded.
I gave the goal.

I then looked totally foolish at my change of decision.

The question now,is where should I stand as the only neutral decision maker?
 
The Referee Store
You could stand closer to the goal line as A) It gives you a better view of the incident thats happned and B) you can still the kicker as you're looking along the line rather than with your back to play.
 
At a penalty kick there are four key decisions for the officiating team.

1. Encroachment by players into the penalty area
2. Encroachment by the keeper
3. Ball over line
4. Incredibly rare, but double touch by the taker

Number 1 isn't in play at kicks from the penalty mark. That leaves three things, and for me a referee on their own should be focusing on 2 and 3, which means being stood on or close to the goal line. Its different with neutral assistants as 2 and 3 can be covered by the active AR, but as a sole referee the goal line has to be your key focus.
 
Add feigning to kick the ball or infarct any other offence by taker to no. 4 above but that doesn't change the priorities given.
 
jertzee said:
Ok,had a penalty shoot out with no neutral AR's.

Decided not to use the club AR's help, but to stand near the edge of the goal area / 6 yard box where I could keep an eye on the goalie moving based on the noise of the kicker who I also watched on his run up.

All going well until one penalty crashed against the underside of the bar, went mostly over the line,came up,hit the bar again,back mainly over the line before bouncing out.

I couldn't be 100% sure the whole ball was over so did not signal a goal. I was 95% sure but not totally convinced as I was not standing on the goal line.

At this point both the kicker's side goalie AND the defending side's goalie said the ball crossed the line.
I asked them if the whole ball had crossed the line,making it clear it had to be the whole ball and both nodded.
I gave the goal.

I then looked totally foolish at my change of decision.

The question now,is where should I stand as the only neutral decision maker?
Click to expand...

Don’t feel foolish. First up, that’s an incredibly unlikely event that would catch out a lot of ARs so don’t beat yourself up. And to have the presence of mind to communicate with the players and the clarity to then give a ”correct” decision... hats off :)

I’ve learned something here. I always do KFTPM (no ARs) next to the kicker as they usually need some managing. But I’ll do the goal line next time:)
 
santa sangria said:
I’ve learned something here. I always do KFTPM (no ARs) next to the kicker as they usually need some managing. But I’ll do the goal line next time:)
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Yep. Me too.

It's never happened to me yet but if it ever does now, I'll be in the right place to make the call. :) :cool:
 
we all learn by doing, absolutely no one gets it right first time!

if you've never experienced a (potentially) dodgy goal line decision or had an assessor / mentor suggesting a position then why would you stand anywhere other than where the refs do on TV?!
 
santa sangria said:
Don’t feel foolish. First up, that’s an incredibly unlikely event that would catch out a lot of ARs so don’t beat yourself up.
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I sure hope it wouldn’t catch ARs by surprise. I always tell my ARs that their first job is to to determine if the ball went over the line on the PK/kftm, and their secondary job is to watch the keeper. (Though certainly the more common flavor of over the line is the GK in or sort of in possession of a ball on or over the line.j
 
socal lurker said:
I sure hope it wouldn’t catch ARs by surprise. I always tell my ARs that their first job is to to determine if the ball went over the line on the PK/kftm, and their secondary job is to watch the keeper. (Though certainly the more common flavor of over the line is the GK in or sort of in possession of a ball on or over the line.j
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I actually go further than that and tell them that I ONLY want them looking for goal/no-goal decisions.

If keeper encroachment can only be spotted by an AR on the line, then calling for it is going to cause more trouble that it's worth. If I can spot it from level with the taker then it;s obvious enough that I won't be the only one thinking it, but if I can't then chances are, the AR and the GK are going to be the only two people in the stadium aware of what's happened.
 
GraemeS said:
, but if I can't then chances are, the AR and the GK are going to be the only two people in the stadium aware of what's happened.
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Well, that would still beat the VAR using super slo mo being the only one who can see it!:eek:

I do have my ARs watch on PKs. If I have very experienced ARs, I totally give them the GK decision; if I don’t have that faith in them, I ask for a subtle signal so I can make a decision on whether I agree.
 
jertzee said:
but to stand near the edge of the goal area / 6 yard box where I could keep an eye on the goalie moving based on the noise of the kicker who I also watched on his run up.
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Just to add on to what everyone is saying re: going to the goal line.

If you feel you're not getting a good view of all three elements, you may be far too close to the action tbh. I definitely think standing by the edge of the six yard box is way too close anyway and I don't think you should be relying only on the sound of the ball being kicked - what if he's feinting etc?

Stand on or by the goalline and further back, so you can take a wide view, say halfway between the goal area and penalty area lines?

That should be far back enough you can easily see the player's run up, you're in prime position to judge ball in/out and you should have enough room to judge the keeper's positioning - though I wouldn't get too hung up on that aspect. If an A/R can judge ball in/out down by the touchline, then it shouldn't be an issue for you to drop back a bit further in the box tbh.
 
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GraemeS said:
I actually go further than that and tell them that I ONLY want them looking for goal/no-goal decisions.

If keeper encroachment can only be spotted by an AR on the line, then calling for it is going to cause more trouble that it's worth. If I can spot it from level with the taker then it;s obvious enough that I won't be the only one thinking it, but if I can't then chances are, the AR and the GK are going to be the only two people in the stadium aware of what's happened.
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Hey @GraemeS , worth being aware that choosing not to use your AR to advise on GK encroachment isn't strictly correct in law. It's one of the specific roles called out for ARs in the LOTG. I certainly know a few Observers who quickly point this out if a referee's pre match is incorrect in this area! Obviously, just because an AR advises you of encroachment doesn't mean you need to go along with this advice ....!
 
Russell Jones said:
Hey @GraemeS , worth being aware that choosing not to use your AR to advise on GK encroachment isn't strictly correct in law. It's one of the specific roles called out for ARs in the LOTG. I certainly know a few Observers who quickly point this out if a referee's pre match is incorrect in this area! Obviously, just because an AR advises you of encroachment doesn't mean you need to go along with this advice ....!
Click to expand...

Thing is, AR usually ”advises” by vigorous flag waving, which is difficult advice to reject!
 
santa sangria said:
Thing is, AR usually ”advises” by vigorous flag waving, which is difficult advice to reject!
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Two easy solutions to this. With buzzer flags, just buzz. Without them, just stand in place for a second or two... no flagging required but still obvious for the referee who should be looking at AR if he has any doubts
 
Russell Jones said:
Two easy solutions to this. With buzzer flags, just buzz. Without them, just stand in place for a second or two... no flagging required but still obvious for the referee who should be looking at AR if he has any doubts
Click to expand...

I've seen that go badly wrong though when the assistant stood his ground, as per instructions, and the referee merrily carried on leaving him stood there looking more than a bit silly.
 
Russell Jones said:
Hey @GraemeS , worth being aware that choosing not to use your AR to advise on GK encroachment isn't strictly correct in law. It's one of the specific roles called out for ARs in the LOTG. I certainly know a few Observers who quickly point this out if a referee's pre match is incorrect in this area! Obviously, just because an AR advises you of encroachment doesn't mean you need to go along with this advice ....!
Click to expand...

Indeed, never say anything in the debrief with an observer present that is incorrect in law. I learnt that the hard way as a L3 when my coach tore me a new one for saying that I didn't want penalty retakes unless the keeper was a long way off his line. He had no problem with the advice, but it should have been given in private in the changing room away from the observer. Especially now that at L3 there is a performance competency just relating to the pre-match instructions, if an observer felt so obliged he could major development advice you for that essentially wiping out one of your three non-mandatory competencies.
 
Russell Jones said:
Hey @GraemeS , worth being aware that choosing not to use your AR to advise on GK encroachment isn't strictly correct in law. It's one of the specific roles called out for ARs in the LOTG. I certainly know a few Observers who quickly point this out if a referee's pre match is incorrect in this area! Obviously, just because an AR advises you of encroachment doesn't mean you need to go along with this advice ....!
Click to expand...

Actually Law 6 merely states that this duty applies to Penalty kicks...not KFTPM. I checked over the instructions given here in Australia and we have been told categorically that the AR's ONLY duty at KFTPM is goal/no goal. Keeper encroachment (at least over here) must be left solely to the CR.
 
Ganajin said:
Actually Law 6 merely states that this duty applies to Penalty kicks...not KFTPM. I checked over the instructions given here in Australia and we have been told categorically that the AR's ONLY duty at KFTPM is goal/no goal. Keeper encroachment (at least over here) must be left solely to the CR.
Click to expand...

Don't think that is technically correct, as kicks from the penalty marks in law 10 states ...

Kicks from the penalty mark are taken after the match has ended and unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game apply

Nothing is stated about assistants no longer checking for goalkeeper movement, so law conditions on law 6 still apply, the specific one being ...

They indicate when:

• at penalty kicks, the goalkeeper moves off the goal line before the ball is kicked and if the ball crosses the line; if additional assistant referees have
been appointed the assistant referee takes a position in line with the penalty mark
 
Russell Jones said:
Two easy solutions to this. With buzzer flags, just buzz. Without them, just stand in place for a second or two... no flagging required but still obvious for the referee who should be looking at AR if he has any doubts
Click to expand...

So you aren't comfortable with a referee changing the AR responsibilities as set out, but you you are comfortable ignoring the signal (raising the flag) that is expressly set out?

IMHO, the AR duties are designed for high levels of competency. I don't think it is inappropriate for a R with less experienced/skilled ARs to adjust the roles. (But need to be careful not to fall into the "my game!!" trap.)
 
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