A&H

Substitution incident

RefJef

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This occurred today (not my game, but a colleague)

What would you do.

10 mins to go in a U18 game (friendly, not that that matters).

Player is subbed (repeated/rolling subs). Player is walking off pitch, but before he leaves the FOP, two things happen:

1) His replacement enters the FOP

2) (Possibly/probably because of something said to him by an opposition player) the player being subbed flicks the middle finger at an opposition player.

What action do you take, and why?
 
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Def red card for player going off, def no substitution, circumstances would dictate to me whether am showing a yellow to the sub coming on, am more likely not to from the image I have in my head.
 
Despite the disruption to the process, the substitute become a player as soon as he enters the FOP
Therefore, technically the middle finger warrants a red for the (now) substitute and the (now) player should be cautioned for entering the FOP
The team retains 11 players
Stand to be corrected!
 
Despite the disruption to the process, the substitute become a player as soon as he enters the FOP
Therefore, technically the middle finger warrants a red for the (now) substitute and the (now) player should be cautioned for entering the FOP
The team retains 11 players
Stand to be corrected!



the sub procedure is only complete when the player going off has left the field of play.
 
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the sub procedure is only complete when the player going off has left the field of play.
by your reasoning, a sub at the sideline can come on at any point and be classed as a player on the FOP?
Assuming the ref has authorised the substitution process to begin, the only reference in the book which defines the end of the process, is that of the sub entering the FOP. Therefore, the oncoming sub could be deemed guilty of C6, in doing so the exiting player is now a sub, despite still being on the pitch. A sub can't start this process, only the ref can do so by authorising it
 
Missing from the OP is whether the R gave permission for the sub to enter.

If no permission was given, the sub is entering without permission and not as part of the substitution process. In that case, send off the player leaving and team plays short. Technically caution the sub, but perhaps exercise judgment to not add fuel to the fire.

If permission was given, then the Laws can't give a clear answer to the question, as that is impossible under the Laws. The Laws say that the sub does not enter until the player leaves. There are two possible interpretations, neither of which is fully satisfactory:
(1) Consider the player entering the final step (even though another step hasn't taken place) and consider the player leaving to have become a substituted player, so the team does not play short.
(2) Consider the substitution not completed because the player had not left, and make the team play short.

This scenario is why it is important to follow the proper procedure of not letting subs on the pitch until the player has left.
 
the sub procedure is only complete when the player going off has left the field of play.
P.49

The substitution is completed when a substitute enters the field of play;
from that moment, the replaced player becomes a substituted player and
the substitute becomes a player and can take any restart.
 
Missing from the OP is whether the R gave permission for the sub to enter.

If no permission was given, the sub is entering without permission and not as part of the substitution process. In that case, send off the player leaving and team plays short. Technically caution the sub, but perhaps exercise judgment to not add fuel to the fire.

If permission was given, then the Laws can't give a clear answer to the question, as that is impossible under the Laws. The Laws say that the sub does not enter until the player leaves. There are two possible interpretations, neither of which is fully satisfactory:
(1) Consider the player entering the final step (even though another step hasn't taken place) and consider the player leaving to have become a substituted player, so the team does not play short.
(2) Consider the substitution not completed because the player had not left, and make the team play short.

This scenario is why it is important to follow the proper procedure of not letting subs on the pitch until the player has left.
I agree that this is not covered explicitly by Law. To address every possible scenario, the book would be 1000+ pages
But I'm with option 1) for the reason @JamesL just quoted
 
Also I am taking into account context, temp of the game etc. Before deciding on card colour.

E.g. if he sticks his finger up at his mate jestfully then I am unlikely to be dismissing for that.
 
To replace a player with a substitute, the following must be observed:
  • the referee must be informed before any substitution is made
  • the player being substituted receives the referee’s permission to leave the field of play, unless already off the field
  • the player being replaced is not obliged to leave on the halfway line and takes no further part in the match, except where return substitutions are permitted
  • if a player who is to be replaced refuses to leave, play continues
The substitute only enters:
  • during a stoppage in play
  • at the halfway line
  • after the player being replaced has left
  • after receiving a signal from the referee
The substitution is completed when a substitute enters the field of play



The above must happen BEFORE the sub can be classed as complete? as in, all the bits prior to completion.......
 
Missing from the OP is whether the R gave permission for the sub to enter.

If no permission was given, the sub is entering without permission and not as part of the substitution process. In that case, send off the player leaving and team plays short. Technically caution the sub, but perhaps exercise judgment to not add fuel to the fire.

If permission was given, then the Laws can't give a clear answer to the question, as that is impossible under the Laws. The Laws say that the sub does not enter until the player leaves. There are two possible interpretations, neither of which is fully satisfactory:
(1) Consider the player entering the final step (even though another step hasn't taken place) and consider the player leaving to have become a substituted player, so the team does not play short.
(2) Consider the substitution not completed because the player had not left, and make the team play short.

This scenario is why it is important to follow the proper procedure of not letting subs on the pitch until the player has left.



Senario 2 is my take on it.

big picture as well, those using rolling subs, do we/you always go to the half way line to do it? As in, every time?
someone said this morning about not being able to keep track of apx30 rolling changes in a game, do we all really go to the half way line 30 times for this??
I think if we are on say the centre spot, coach shouts "sub ref" and number 7 is leaving, then does his gesture just before 14 comes on, its harsh to caution 14, as we as referee were not in position to control the procedure???
 
49899264_10205345328630070_9084525034189357056_n.jpg
Mr. Clough informing the friendly crowd that he's won 2 European Cups.

2 fingers can have quite a few meanings!!! :angel:
 
This occurred today (not my game, but a colleague)

What would you do.

10 mins to go in a U18 game (friendly, not that that matters).

Player is subbed (repeated/rolling subs). Player is walking off pitch, but before he leaves the FOP, two things happen:

1) His replacement enters the FOP

2) (Possibly/probably because of something said to him by an opposition player) the player being subbed flicks the middle finger at an opposition player.

What action do you take, and why?
The sub hasn't been completed in accordance with the law - the sub isn't actually on the field as he needs to have waited until the player leaves.
Player is red carded, sub is told to leave the field, they play a man down.

This is why the subs need to be managed.
Strictly speaking it could be a card for the sub coming on early....but as a real world answer, let's not do that :)

Despite the disruption to the process, the substitute become a player as soon as he enters the FOP
Therefore, technically the middle finger warrants a red for the (now) substitute and the (now) player should be cautioned for entering the FOP
The team retains 11 players
Stand to be corrected!
Only if he enters the FOP in accordance with the law.
That hasn't occurred - he contravened the law. So the sub isn't a player.


I agree that this is not covered explicitly by Law. To address every possible scenario, the book would be 1000+ pages
But I'm with option 1) for the reason @JamesL just quoted

Not everything is explicity - some things are implied. The sub isn't allowed to be on the field at that point. Also, nowhere does the LOTG accept that there are 12 players on a team (Which is what you're arguing).

The LOTG used to have phrasing that was probably clearer around this - and while the wording has changed, it hasn't been indicated as an actual change in law
Senario 2 is my take on it.

big picture as well, those using rolling subs, do we/you always go to the half way line to do it? As in, every time?
someone said this morning about not being able to keep track of apx30 rolling changes in a game, do we all really go to the half way line 30 times for this??
I think if we are on say the centre spot, coach shouts "sub ref" and number 7 is leaving, then does his gesture just before 14 comes on, its harsh to caution 14, as we as referee were not in position to control the procedure???
Absolutely not - you're just wasting everybody's time and wearing yourself out.
Use the whistle and voice to still control it - but don't run over every time. Maybe do it if you're close, but aside from that? Definitely not.
 
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No way I'm dismissing him for that...



the middle finger gesture at an opposing player is the very definition of, offensive gesture?
Where I am, we had a spate of, 3/4 nearly in a row, about 4/5 years ago, all of them caught on film and all of them correctly dismissed and fully supported by the powers that be.

Change it slightly, he is going off, turns to you as ref and makes same gesture to you? Surely 100/100 are going to dismiss.
 
This is what happened (and to clarify an earlier question, the ref had given permission for the substitution to take place, i.e. given permission for the player to leave the pitch, but had not given permission for the replacement to come onto the pitch)

Red card given to player being subbed (all - manager etc - felt this was appropriate)

Ref considered giving yellow to sub for coming onto play without permission, but chose not to given temp of game etc.

Team the had to continue with 10 players (due to player being red carded). Manager chose to sub another player instead to allow the oncoming sub to play.


After game, amicable discussion with ref, manager & myself. Mangager suggested player had already been subbed so, whilst red card was valid, he should have continued with 11. Ref & myself both felt the substitution hadn’t happened, so ref was correct to have team continue with 10.
 
This is what happened (and to clarify an earlier question, the ref had given permission for the substitution to take place, i.e. given permission for the player to leave the pitch, but had not given permission for the replacement to come onto the pitch)

Red card given to player being subbed (all - manager etc - felt this was appropriate)

Ref considered giving yellow to sub for coming onto play without permission, but chose not to given temp of game etc.

Team the had to continue with 10 players (due to player being red carded). Manager chose to sub another player instead to allow the oncoming sub to play.


After game, amicable discussion with ref, manager & myself. Mangager suggested player had already been subbed so, whilst red card was valid, he should have continued with 11. Ref & myself both felt the substitution hadn’t happened, so ref was correct to have team continue with 10.
Morale of the story, make sure one leaves before the other enters
 
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