A&H

Interfering in play

I'm with @es1 on this one. In fact, in the pre match briefing for my Contrib game last weekend, the referee covered exactly this scenario with the advice that "If no one, especially the GK, is appealing, then we can be confident the 'offside' player didn't interfere and therefore we just crack on'
Oh god. Referees like that are part of the problem. He could rephrase it as "I've read the laws and 22 players haven't, but instead I'm going to rely on their interpretation of a rare situation instead of my own knowledge and integ*cough*"

It's just nonsense. How many players would even know or remember that blocking line of sight is a possible offence? Just make a damn decision.

I'd like to see it from another angle - in fact, the ref probably has a better angle than the keeper. But it looks like his view would have been blocked - which makes it clearly offside (just this video angle isn't the best to tell this).

AR needs to flag it or get the ref's attention and have a chat - it's likely to be the CR making the determination on interfering.

If LoS isn't blocked, then I don't see this as interfering.
 
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Perspective...
These are very, very rare occurrences.
For a referee to be positioned to be able to perfectly judge exact line of sight when the ball is kicked is almost impossible.
An AR should communicate about a player in an offside position, yes.
For a referee to include this scenario in a pre-match - and to give common sense advice in what is a very rare and very challenging situation to handle - should be applauded.

IMHO of course.
 
Oh god. Referees like that are part of the problem. He could rephrase it as "I've read the laws and 22 players haven't, but instead I'm going to rely on their interpretation of a rare situation instead of my own knowledge and integ*cough*"

It's just nonsense. How many players would even know or remember that blocking line of sight is a possible offence? Just make a damn decision.

I'd like to see it from another angle - in fact, the ref probably has a better angle than the keeper. But it looks like his view would have been blocked - which makes it clearly offside (just this video angle isn't the best to tell this).

AR needs to flag it or get the ref's attention and have a chat - it's likely to be the CR making the determination on interfering.

If LoS isn't blocked, then I don't see this as interfering.
But, as I'm repeatedly told on here, players will appeal for anything. If they've just conceded a goal and they see any hint of a possibility of a reason the referee might overrule it, any player I've ever refereed will be all over it. Like I've said elsewhere - an appeal doesn't mean it is offside, but it does immediately strike me as strange that no player is even trying to claim offside. So if I'm not sure (and the referee in the clip clearly isn't 100% sure there's an offside), the fact that players aren't even appealing does put a small tick in the mental "allow the goal" column.
 
But, as I'm repeatedly told on here, players will appeal for anything. If they've just conceded a goal and they see any hint of a possibility of a reason the referee might overrule it, any player I've ever refereed will be all over it. Like I've said elsewhere - an appeal doesn't mean it is offside, but it does immediately strike me as strange that no player is even trying to claim offside. So if I'm not sure (and the referee in the clip clearly isn't 100% sure there's an offside), the fact that players aren't even appealing does put a small tick in the mental "allow the goal" column.
The point is that players appealing or not appealing shouldn't even come into you decision. You don't call offside if you are not reasonably sure of it. That's that. If you want to use the lack of appeal as an after thought tick so be it but no consideration in the decision.

The appeal being given as a consideration in the prematch instruction is very unprofessional for me.
 
We have seen/discussed this scenario a few times on this forum, an opponent runs through the PA after a goal kick before ball is in play and challenges a defender leading to a turnover and a goal. Not a single defender appeals this but it doesn't make it a valid goal.
 
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I don't think we are giving the officials enough credit here. The still is not at the point the ball was first played. From the still it is apparent the player is in the process of running across the keeper. Therefore it is reasonable to me to assume that he wasnt in that position when the ball was played.
Having then watched the video I am further swayed towards more a correct decision than an incorrect one as the player and the gk move in opposite directions to each other. I'd need a still at the point of ball contact to be sure either way but there is enough in that to suggest they may not have been wrobg after all. Will have a been a quick "piop" - "not interfering- no flag".

Moving onto the player reaction argument - its obviously done differently across the world but certainly in England player reaction has a high weighting on these types of offside offences. Yet to hear a contrib ref not say it and yet to hear an observer, having listened to pre match, pick up on it.
 
Very hard to see exactly but to me it looks like he isnt impacting on line of sight at the point the ball is played so that would make it a good no offside call.
 
Oh god. Referees like that are part of the problem. He could rephrase it as "I've read the laws and 22 players haven't, but instead I'm going to rely on their interpretation of a rare situation instead of my own knowledge and integ*cough*"

It's just nonsense. How many players would even know or remember that blocking line of sight is a possible offence? Just make a damn decision.

This may well be an English thing, but it is certainly coached and up to a very senior level. If the keeper is picking the ball out of the net without a single complaint any assistant raising their flag would be thrown to the wolves. He would be surprising everyone - the team that has scored, the team that has conceded, the crowd, etc.
 
Oh god. Referees like that are part of the problem. He could rephrase it as "I've read the laws and 22 players haven't, but instead I'm going to rely on their interpretation of a rare situation instead of my own knowledge and integ*cough*"

It's just nonsense. How many players would even know or remember that blocking line of sight is a possible offence? Just make a damn decision.

I'd like to see it from another angle - in fact, the ref probably has a better angle than the keeper. But it looks like his view would have been blocked - which makes it clearly offside (just this video angle isn't the best to tell this).

AR needs to flag it or get the ref's attention and have a chat - it's likely to be the CR making the determination on interfering.

If LoS isn't blocked, then I don't see this as interfering.

If you're an assistant, you're focusing on the kick taker and the last man, in that split second the ball is struck you need to consider every player who is beyond the line for offside/onside. It's difficult to judge whether a player is blocking his eyeline (especially when you're seeing it sideways on) as well as taking in the above. Not to mention the defenders you're focusing on, the keeper and the opposition player will be making sudden sidestep movements from their position as the ball is being struck. Personally, I think player reaction is a perfectly reasonable thing to consider in this scenario
 
This was discussed at a recent RA meeting, headed by a former top level ref/current assessor and a current football league AR. The video we watched showed the AR up with play as the attacker is brought down and the referee gives a penalty. The foul was committed just outside the box and we were told to imagine that we'd clearly seen that. We were then told to imagine that the refs pre match instructions were to not get involved in penalty box incidents and that the ref would decide.

The debate was whether we should defy the pre match instructions and tell the ref what we saw (no comms) or keep quiet and follow the pre match instructions. The room (a mixture of level 7 newbys like me to very experienced refs) was split, and it was recognised that there was no clear right answer here. For clarity, I would've gone with the refs instructions and done nothing, others were adamant that they'd raise the flag and get involved. Interesting debate

Obviously that's entirely your prerogative.

But for any up and coming referees out there who are starting to be given more AR responsibilities, worth remembering that you are there to assist the referee and flagrantly ignoring his or her specific pre match advice (whether on this issue or any other) is a sure fire way to get bad marks and an unhelpful reputation. Obviously feel free to clarify things pre match (and if you feel strongly about an issue to debate it at that point) but during the game, go against your instructions at your peril
 
For clarity, I would've gone with the refs instructions and done nothing, others were adamant that they'd raise the flag and get involved. Interesting debate

I'd want to flag and inform the referee, because it's the right thing to do. But I'd be wary of that having an affect on my reputation as a team player. Ideally, I'd imagine there shouldn't be any instructions not to get involved in those decisions - personally I wouldn't use those instructions and I'd welcome any advice/help from the assistant if it helped get the decision right.
 
This was discussed at a recent RA meeting, headed by a former top level ref/current assessor and a current football league AR. The video we watched showed the AR up with play as the attacker is brought down and the referee gives a penalty. The foul was committed just outside the box and we were told to imagine that we'd clearly seen that. We were then told to imagine that the refs pre match instructions were to not get involved in penalty box incidents and that the ref would decide.

The debate was whether we should defy the pre match instructions and tell the ref what we saw (no comms) or keep quiet and follow the pre match instructions. The room (a mixture of level 7 newbys like me to very experienced refs) was split, and it was recognised that there was no clear right answer here. For clarity, I would've gone with the refs instructions and done nothing, others were adamant that they'd raise the flag and get involved. Interesting debate

This is fairly common round my way in the pre-match and the best ARs are always expected to signal foul in-out of the box with the body.

My take in your scenario is: if the ref doesn't ask for help, doesn't look for a tip and has clearly given you instructions in the pre-match, you have to respect those instructions. If you are in the middle you want your ARs to follow your instructions - for a variety of underling reasons - so you should do the same.
 
This was discussed at a recent RA meeting, headed by a former top level ref/current assessor and a current football league AR. The video we watched showed the AR up with play as the attacker is brought down and the referee gives a penalty. The foul was committed just outside the box and we were told to imagine that we'd clearly seen that. We were then told to imagine that the refs pre match instructions were to not get involved in penalty box incidents and that the ref would decide.

The debate was whether we should defy the pre match instructions and tell the ref what we saw (no comms) or keep quiet and follow the pre match instructions. The room (a mixture of level 7 newbys like me to very experienced refs) was split, and it was recognised that there was no clear right answer here. For clarity, I would've gone with the refs instructions and done nothing, others were adamant that they'd raise the flag and get involved. Interesting debate

No need to flag. If you think its in you crab to the goal line. If you think its out you take exaggerated steps to the left.

Then the referee can decide if he wants your advice or not. If not, there is normally a changing room to have that discussion after the game.
 
No need to flag. If you think its in you crab to the goal line. If you think its out you take exaggerated steps to the left.

Then the referee can decide if he wants your advice or not. If not, there is normally a changing room to have that discussion after the game.

I think just turning the body is much more effective and subtle. It gives the ref your opinion about in/out of the box and is hard to spot for players. It’s also easy to spot out of the corner of your eye.

(I think turning the body is popular here because it works so well in futsal when the weakside ref wants to tip the ref closer to the ball about kick in direction... )
 
If you're an assistant, you're focusing on the kick taker and the last man, in that split second the ball is struck you need to consider every player who is beyond the line for offside/onside. It's difficult to judge whether a player is blocking his eyeline (especially when you're seeing it sideways on) as well as taking in the above. Not to mention the defenders you're focusing on, the keeper and the opposition player will be making sudden sidestep movements from their position as the ball is being struck. Personally, I think player reaction is a perfectly reasonable thing to consider in this scenario

You're right that it's difficult to judge LoS blocking from the line - that's why you draw it to the attention of the ref and discuss it. AR identifies the PIOP, ref probably has a better picture of interference, jointly make a decision.

As for 'don't flag offside infringements unless the players call for it' - sigh, let's just make a decision.

The problem with that thinking is that if the keeper appeals for it after a second or two - yes, that WILL happen, you're screwed. Because now you know you've screwed over the team to try to make your pay go a little easier, and you can't change your decision otherwise it will look like you're just disallowing it because the keeper yelled at you.

As I said, how many players are even going to remember that blocking LoS is a thing? How often does that get given at ANY level? The number of times I've seen that be a relevant factor in my entire career I could probably count on one hand.

YOU know the laws.

The players don't.

So make your decision - don't ask the players what the decision should be.

Nothing looks worse than an AR who is clearly raising the flag only because the defending team yelled at him.

Look, yes, there is some scope in considering player reactions for borderline decisions. But if you're on the line, then you don't know how borderline it is. You don't need to stick the flag up - call the ref over, discuss it. Let the ref make the final decision. Referee needs information to make a decision - and that means your information on a potential offside infringement.

If the ref then decides that they don't want to 'influence the game', well, that's on them. But if they reckon there was clear blocking of LoS then the ref needs the chance to make that decision.
 
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Many will recall the Tiote disallowed goal for Newcadtle against Man City
AR does not flag yet stands in position, Hart appeals for offside saying he could not see the ball!
Anyway it shows that neither the referee nor AR could say for sure that there was interfering with an opponent which there wasn't.
Personally I think the only person that can really give these is the referee as depth perception and angle of view is extremely difficult from a side on view.
I suppose if Hart picked the ball out of the net would anyone be bothered.
 
Lol at the commentators, trying to claim the AR didn't think there was an offside offence.
I suppose it takes a referee to know that the AR was concerned something was up! This is a definite scenario where the AR needs to tell the referee of the PIOP. Up to the referee to determine if the opponent was affected.
Personally, I think the rear angle shows line of sight wasn't really blocked given the ball was above head height by the time it passed the closest player.

but, that's the benefit of video. There's a good question that comes out of this video though.

As a referee, how do you determine whether a player blocking line of sight is sufficient for an offside offence to have occurred?
 
Lol at the commentators, trying to claim the AR didn't think there was an offside offence.
I suppose it takes a referee to know that the AR was concerned something was up! This is a definite scenario where the AR needs to tell the referee of the PIOP. Up to the referee to determine if the opponent was affected.
Personally, I think the rear angle shows line of sight wasn't really blocked given the ball was above head height by the time it passed the closest player.

but, that's the benefit of video. There's a good question that comes out of this video though.

As a referee, how do you determine whether a player blocking line of sight is sufficient for an offside offence to have occurred?
You've kind of answered your own question. If the player is blocking line of sight, they are interfering with an opponent. And therefore, committing an offside offence.
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Key words here are "must be penalised"
 
Am disallowing that as ref, and flagging if as AR and giving my advice to ref
One player, maybe am ok with, but, three players, one in the six yard box, the other two as good as, and imo easily justified disallowing it for offside, interfering and in line of sight. Line of sight is one thing but Hart also cant dive to save it (even if he had the ability to) as the forward most attacker would be blocking his view mid flight, I have not explained that very well but tried my best!

Call it a cop out but public park etc, no goal for me, offside
The clip in question, yes, you can explain it slow mo and justify giving the goal
 
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