A&H

decision dismissed in Cup Semi

SussexReferee

SussexReferee

New Member
this is me posting for the first time

i’m just returning to the middle following quite some time out owing to injuries. here is the incident involving me this morning..

SITUATION
Blue 1 - 3 Green
⌚️ 77 minutes

Blue goes down inside the box (on the side closest to me) under slide from behind/side by Green

giving me no hint on his (Referee) opinion, i went with PK. the Referee then comes over to me to question the decision, to which i responded with “the Green took the leg of the Blue first”. the Referee then replied “i do not think so”

RESULT
Blue 2 - 3 Green

when the tie is over, the Referee comes to me “you should not get involved in PK decisions”

did i do wrong?
 
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For me personally it depends on what you have been given in your prematch instructions. If you were told not to give penalties then you don’t. Very difficult to sell if you’re closest and it’s a clear penalty, but will be a learning curve for the referee.

Out of interest what was discussed prematch?
 
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not much, but nothing to do with PK

i did not rush the decision, but when i received no hint from the Referee, i opted to go with my decision
 
I like your report writing style :)

If you were not given pre-match instructions you did the right thing. If you were, it depends what the instructions were.

On a side note, thanks to VAR, I have recently changed my prematch instructions for Penalties. "only call penalties if i have made a 'clear error' or i have missed an incident, VAR style". Then I explain what VAR style is, if they don't know.
 
i know why you would give this instruction to CAR, but AR in Cup Semi. is getting the decision correct using the experience/knowledge i bring not worth it?
 
Sadly some refs think that ARs are only dogsbody Assistants and certainly not worthy of being insistants.... Fine if he considers your view and then rules the other way but to not even consider it or want any input whatsover is the whole reason your there!!! I'd tell him to do one!!! Idiot!!
 
SussexReferee said:
i know why you would give this instruction to CAR, but AR in Cup Semi. is getting the decision correct using the experience/knowledge i bring not worth it?
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Absolutely worth it an respected. I am not talking for the referee in your game, but most referees (including me) would rely on and trust their own a experience and knowledge more than their AR's. If I have seen an incident and formed an opinion then that is what I would stick with (rarely through consult i might change that). Having said that, sometimes I am not sure and through eye contact I ask for the opinion of my AR. As an 'assistant' you just have to accept how the referee wants it done and if he hasn't made it clear, then he only has himself to blame, but if he has and you don't follow, you are not really assisting him.

Team work is a lot harder if the referee and AR haven't made it clear from the outset what the expectations are.
 
SussexReferee said:
did i do wrong?
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From what you've said, no, you haven't.

Sounds like you got, in the words of Sheffield's Finest, "an idiot" in the middle for that game. :p

I think it is absolutely fine for you, as the AR to give the decision. But, I suppose in future, if the referee doesn't bring it up in the pre-match briefing, then you should ask him for clarification. That way you can avoid any such disagreements.
 
In the absence of any ore match instructions from the referee you've done the right thing.

For penalties I am looking for four things:
1) Seen it and I give it. No input needed.
2) seen it, no penalty. I will be very clear to all concerned its a no penalty. Again, I ask for no input.
3) I dont know, im looking at you and I need help. Give me a signal either way.
4) I am incorrect in law. I explain that if its an opinion call refer to 1 and 2 but if I have made a catastrophic error e.g. wrong team on a handball call for example then please bail me out in that instance.

Your OP is exactly why pre match instructions are so important.
 
The normal instruction here is that the AR shouldn't be signalling a penalty unless the referee is looking for help, or it's something that's behind the ref's back or his view is completely and utterly blocked.

In this instance in this thread, the first question that comes to mind is - how much of a view did the referee have? Did he have a clear view of the incident?

one said:
I like your report writing style :)

If you were not given pre-match instructions you did the right thing. If you were, it depends what the instructions were.

On a side note, thanks to VAR, I have recently changed my prematch instructions for Penalties. "only call penalties if i have made a 'clear error' or i have missed an incident, VAR style". Then I explain what VAR style is, if they don't know.
Click to expand...
If it's anything like down under, not even the VARs know what VAR style is!
 
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SussexReferee said:
this is me posting for the first time

i’m just returning to the middle following quite some time out owing to injuries. here is the incident involving me this morning..

SITUATION
Blue 1 - 3 Green
⌚️ 77 minutes

Blue goes down inside the box (on the side closest to me) under slide from behind/side by Green

giving me no hint on his (Referee) opinion, i went with PK. the Referee then comes over to me to question the decision, to which i responded with “the Green took the leg of the Blue first”. the Referee then replied “i do not think so”

RESULT
Blue 2 - 3 Green

when the tie is over, the Referee comes to me “you should not get involved in PK decisions”

did i do wrong?
Click to expand...
There is no right/wrong... and yes, your ref might not be bathing himself in glory with the lack of pre-match and non-constructive comments...

But, I am with the Captain on this... unless the referee is clearly looking for your help, or is obviously unsighted... then should you really be flagging?

If the incident is 15 yards from you and the referee is similar/closer then you have to look to your ref. In this situation a good ref will make some kind of "no" signal (cut the grass or shout to play on). Sounds like your ref did not react... it's a you had to be there moment... but it also sounds like the ref was not looking for your help.

We had a great AR course where we looked at these situations. We all came away thinking that there are far fewer times we should flag than we thought.

Try to take away a positive... next time in pre-match... tell your ref about this... ask them to make eye contact and/or signal their yes/no decisions at KMIs...
 
@SussexReferee - if the referee did not mention in his pre-match what he expected, then you didn't do wrong.

The problem with Cup semi-finals, is that they are given to referees as a reward for doing well in the their normal matches - which don't have NAR's. They don't know how to use them well and refereeing in their normal style. Sometimes the NAR are inexperienced officials who have not done many match, so cannot assist the referee to the most effective.

If you are in this position again, always ask the referee to either clarify or expand his PMI on potential key match incidents.
 
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I don't know how many times you've been a NAR, but you've learned a valuable lesson. If the center doesn't give you instruction for how to handle PK decisions, then make sure you ask.

To be honest, I hate when refs tell me "don't call PKs". I can live with refs who say "give me the first crack" or "see where I am before flagging". I generally give the instruction of "if you are 100% sure and I will look like a complete fool for not calling the PK, then raise the flag".
 
cheers for the comments

i’ve got some experience in being the NAR, so i know it is down to the person in the middle, their own preferences

given the comments in this post, i still believe i got the decision right. i were fifteen metres from the incident, unobstructed. the Referee were double this, behind the incident, giving me no hints to their opinion, just looking in my direction

i will be more insistent on the PMI in future
 
SussexReferee said:
i were fifteen metres from the incident, unobstructed. the Referee were double this, behind the incident, giving me no hints to their opinion, just looking in my direction
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Good job then. We can only try our best at every incident. And it's obvious you had your best foot forward here. And made the right decision.
:)

PS Good old Sussex by the sea etc etc ;)
 
It doesn't sounds like you got a clear "no" signal from the ref, which I think is what you would need in order to not come in when you're as confident as you seem to be, particularly in the absence of specific PMI's around this topic. I'd suggest that means 2 possibilities:

1. It was such an obvious non-penalty that the referee didn't even feel the need to dismiss it. Have a think about if there were any attackers appealing - if not, there's a possibility you saw something that no-one else on the pitch did, and so dropped your ref in it by coming in for a penalty that no one was even looking for?

2. The ref in question was confident in his "no penalty" decision and doesn't feel the need to communicate his decisions to anyone (including his AR's), considering silence to be enough signal that he's not interested in a penalty. If he didn't say anything to you pre-match, it's a little unfair to tell you post-match that he wasn't interested in your input, but at least you can take it as a learning moment and you know to ask pre-match in future!
 
My penalty instructions are that there will be one of 4 things ...

1. I give it, in which case just move into position unless you are 100% certain that I have made a decision that will baffle all 22 players and everyone else watching

2. I will rule it out, again just move into position unless I'm going to make myself look like a total fool

3. My eyes will be boring a hole in your head which means I need help, either signal penalty or shake your heard to say no

4. It's a foul and I know it's a foul and blow the whistle, but I'm not sure if it was in or out of the area. If you are closer to the line to me and have a clear view of it please move to the edge of the area for a FK or flag and go to corner flag for penalty.

Generally at senior levels you only signal for a penalty if the referee invites you in, which of course is easier with comms. I have worked with some referees who say only they will get involved in penalties, and the key thing here is that you make sure the observer hears this in the pre-match. I had one game where this happened and there was a clear penalty right in front of me and I'd been told not to flag. Assessor asked me why I didn't flag as it was so obvious, referee said nothing and just looked at the floor, so I hung him out to dry and said we'd been told not to get involved on penalties. Referee immediately denied this at which point the other assistant said "yes you did". Awkward drive home that one was, luckily it was my car otherwise I think both assistants might have been walking ... :(

I was once bailed out by a brilliant decision from an assistant after I gave a penalty for handball. The active assistant buzzed me so I went over and he said that it was 100% an attacking arm that had handled the ball and got me out of a massive hole. Equally I've had assistants drop me right in it by ignoring instructions and flagging for penalties when no one was expecting one.
 
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