So tell me @Russell Jones are you really going to expect the AR to run 30m back up the line or to have the restart from where he signals when the offender commits the offence?
There's more to the Laws than that on the page (or screen)
Where is offside?
- Thread starter micky2001
- Start date
There's more to the Laws than that on the page (or screen)
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Isn't the IDFK just awarded from the position that the player was when the ball was played to him. If so, how can the IDFK ever be in his own half?
I sometimes get more confused than when I started!!!
I need to lie down!!
I sometimes get more confused than when I started!!!
I need to lie down!!
Y
Yacinho
Guest
It can't, that's precisely the argument given to counter whoever says the IDFK has to be taken where the player played the ball, whatever that means, because the player doesn't have to actually touch the ball to be offside. It would mean that the IDFK is wherever the AR decided that the player took part in the action, oh dear.
Ditto.Yes
In fact, on Saturday morning, one of my ARs (NARs) did just this. ~45yards up the pitch from where the player became active to where she began from.
one
RefChat Addict
Where is offside?
I truly don't understand this. A simple question was asked in the OP. There is a direct and unambiguous response in the LOTG on page 109 written to answer that very question. Yet this thread has gone well into the second page of discussion on were the position of the free kick should be.
I always assumed it was per p109 as @one says. But as an AR I stop and raise my flag when the player becomes active. This is not where the player was when the ball was played, but generally it isn't where the player became active either. Mostly it's where the second last defender was when the player became active. Referees almost always play the IDFK from where I'm standing.
I asked an assessor about this once and his view was that the FK was to restore the advantage to the team offended against, and regaining possession was more important in that respect than the exact positioning. He didn't suggest that I ran back up the line once play was stopped. And if I did so I reckon I'd confuse the hell out of everyone*.
ETA: * I will next time am doing a line and see.
I asked an assessor about this once and his view was that the FK was to restore the advantage to the team offended against, and regaining possession was more important in that respect than the exact positioning. He didn't suggest that I ran back up the line once play was stopped. And if I did so I reckon I'd confuse the hell out of everyone*.
ETA: * I will next time am doing a line and see.
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Wow!
I was really expecting Brian, who generally gives excellent advice, to say, "Sorry, just had a bit of brain-fade there, of course the IDFK is to be taken from the position of the offending player when the ball was last played to him by one of his team mates as per the Laws of the Game."
Brian,
in response to Yacinho's point about giving an IDFK in the player's own half you say:
I was really expecting Brian, who generally gives excellent advice, to say, "Sorry, just had a bit of brain-fade there, of course the IDFK is to be taken from the position of the offending player when the ball was last played to him by one of his team mates as per the Laws of the Game."
Brian,
in response to Yacinho's point about giving an IDFK in the player's own half you say:
but you have also said:
So what happens if a player in an offside position and a player in an onside position both run towards a ball in their own half? Does a PIOP somehow commit an offence by entering his own half. No, as you have quite rightly said "you cannot signal until the player who was in the offside position either plays the ball or his team mate gives up the chase." So what happens if this does not happen until the PIOP is well into his own half?
Thanks for the compliment. I haven't had a brain fade.
If you consider the player returning to his own half. In watching more than 2,000 games of football I have seen this a handful of times. If a player is running back into his own half it is more likely that the ball will be played by a team mate. Even if it isn't his position is likely to have been very close to the halfway line, which is where I would expect the AR to be (please note, close to, not on the halfway line). Therefore the signal will come when he plays it and he will have ti explain to the referee why he has signalled. Also if he runs a long way back into his own half is this not similar to a missed flag? The instruction in that situation is that the AR maintains his signal until play has moved well into the other half of the field.
Like many of the scenarios posed on here, the situations are difficult to describe and explain in full detail so all understand them. This is certainly in that category.
The player returning to his own half example is rare. More common is:
Ball played over the top of a high defensive line that is on the half way line. Two attacking players, one just IOP, one not, chase the ball. AR (busting his guts down the line to keep up) waits to see, PIOP gets to the ball at the edge of the PA, AR flags offside.
Brian, you are saying that the IDFK is awarded from the edge of the PA, others are saying that it is awarded near the half way line. Do I understand that right?
Ball played over the top of a high defensive line that is on the half way line. Two attacking players, one just IOP, one not, chase the ball. AR (busting his guts down the line to keep up) waits to see, PIOP gets to the ball at the edge of the PA, AR flags offside.
Brian, you are saying that the IDFK is awarded from the edge of the PA, others are saying that it is awarded near the half way line. Do I understand that right?
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Yes, I think that summarises the discussion / debate well @black_dog .
Re-reading the above, we have Brian, Callum (and yourself?) in favour of the edge of the Penalty Area.
Paul, One, McTavish, Alex, Liam, Rainer, Bester, Yacinho and myself all giving the FK up by the halfway line.
Personally I'm in no doubt. But to completely set my mind at rest I'll be double checking with my RDO (an ex World Cup Final AR!) next time I see him
In the PL you sometimes see the the AR hold the flag until the offside player becomes active, then raise the flag and sprint back up the line to the original place where the attacker was when the ball was played.
Spot on @black_dog.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
I think "30m" is being deliberately obtuse Brian, but yes I have seen ARs run "back" to where the player was when the ball was played at the top levels.
Have never seen a fk for offside taken in opponents half myself.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
No Paul, just trying to illustrate the point. As I said earlier it's sometimes difficult to convey accurately what is meant.
I'm Irish actually. I just happen to have lived in Yorkshire for 42 years.A Yorkshireman, obtuse?! Why perish the thought Paul. Sorry @Brian Hamilton , couldn't resist!!
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OMG (always wanted to type that) - talk about complicating a very simple law
Offside simply has two boxes to tick which get ticked at the time the ball is played.
Box 1 - Is the player (who is the subject of our question) in an offisde position at the time the ball is played to him by a team mate (whether deliberately or not)?
To be in an offside position (at the time the ball is played) he must be further forward than the ball, the halfway line and the second last defender.
That's Box 1 - if you do not tick this then there is no need to go to Box 2 (don't worry - this box ticking takes milliseconds in our heads).
Box 2 - having ticked box 1 we can move on to deciding if he commits PIG
Does he Play the ball (this includes is he imminently going to play the ball i.e. a through ball at a high defensive line)
Does he Interfere with an opponent (i.e. usually this is getting in the GK line of sight at a shot)
Does he Gain an advantage by being in the offside position (at the time the ball is played don't forget) (i.e. this us where the ball ricochets off a defender or comes back off the GK or the frame of the goal)
If a player runs back into his own half having been in an offside position when the ball was played then 'normally' the AR will flag when he is imminently going to play it which will be around halfway. It is rare for free kcicks to be taken in the opponents' half but if we apply the LoTG then it COULD happen.
We tend to 'wait and see' as we can't always know when a player running back from an OS position is going to get close enough to be PIG and in adult football when a ball is played it is rare for someone to run back this far as the midfield would deal with it.
Regarding the clarification of a player originally in an offisde position being brough back onside by a defender deliberately playing the ball it is easier to think of this as not an offside as the ball is not being played by a teammate. As soon as the defender decides to play the ball it is irrelevant where the attacker is as it is played by the defender and not a team mate so his position matters not!
Offside simply has two boxes to tick which get ticked at the time the ball is played.
Box 1 - Is the player (who is the subject of our question) in an offisde position at the time the ball is played to him by a team mate (whether deliberately or not)?
To be in an offside position (at the time the ball is played) he must be further forward than the ball, the halfway line and the second last defender.
That's Box 1 - if you do not tick this then there is no need to go to Box 2 (don't worry - this box ticking takes milliseconds in our heads).
Box 2 - having ticked box 1 we can move on to deciding if he commits PIG
Does he Play the ball (this includes is he imminently going to play the ball i.e. a through ball at a high defensive line)
Does he Interfere with an opponent (i.e. usually this is getting in the GK line of sight at a shot)
Does he Gain an advantage by being in the offside position (at the time the ball is played don't forget) (i.e. this us where the ball ricochets off a defender or comes back off the GK or the frame of the goal)
If a player runs back into his own half having been in an offside position when the ball was played then 'normally' the AR will flag when he is imminently going to play it which will be around halfway. It is rare for free kcicks to be taken in the opponents' half but if we apply the LoTG then it COULD happen.
We tend to 'wait and see' as we can't always know when a player running back from an OS position is going to get close enough to be PIG and in adult football when a ball is played it is rare for someone to run back this far as the midfield would deal with it.
Regarding the clarification of a player originally in an offisde position being brough back onside by a defender deliberately playing the ball it is easier to think of this as not an offside as the ball is not being played by a teammate. As soon as the defender decides to play the ball it is irrelevant where the attacker is as it is played by the defender and not a team mate so his position matters not!
Not for the offside offence it cannot.
Pg 109. "When an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick to be taken from the position of the offending player when the ball was last played to him by one of his team mates"
Since you can't be in an offside position in your own half, the defending team can't be taking that free kick in their opponent's half. Ever.
Correct, and that is why - and as I've had explained to my on my AR courses - you flag the offence at the moment in time it has become an offence, and then you move back along the line (if required), and indicate far side, middle or near side with your flag, therefore applying the law as per page 109.