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This is what happens when you are not in line with 2nd last defender

Discussion in 'As Seen on TV' started by Ciley Myrus, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    Based on that decision alone, I don't think a game should be replayed, however, if you stop clip on 1 min 16 seconds, the mystery is solved...AR is in line with 18 yard box, if anything, his left leg is further out than that.....2nd last defender however is clearly IN the 18 yard box.....and thus the decision is called wrongly...
     
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  4. Ref-Al

    Ref-Al Member Level 6 Referee

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    Am I missing something here? AR is in a credible position to give an offside decision. He got it wrong, no argument about that, but I defiantly wouldn’t be criticising his position.
     
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  5. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    As I typed? If you stop clip at moment ball is kicked, he is not in line with the 2nd last defender. And, his position is mandatory here, and that's to be in line with the 2nd last defender. This is not grass roots Sunday league where you can make allowance for a yard, this is a WC qualifier, in the last seconds and there is no room for error. A mistake judgement wise, it can happen, but to factually not be in the correct and required place, has caused mayhem,
     
  6. CapnBloodbeard

    CapnBloodbeard Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with that at all. He looks to be perfectly in line with the 2nd last defender to me, he just screwed up.
    I didn't like the way the other AR was strolling up the field at the start of the clip though. And my god, the conduct of those players is disgusting.
     
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  7. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to take a screen shot but if you freeze it at 1 mins 16 you saying the AR is in line ! His is nearly out the 18 yard box whereas the 2nd last defender is clearly inside the 18 yard box, so how can he be in line !!!
     
  8. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    2nd last defender, clearly in the 18 yard box?
    AR clearly not in the 18 yard box?
     

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  9. Ref-Al

    Ref-Al Member Level 6 Referee

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    If you look at your screen shoot he is leaning and looking, his head is line with the defender. But that’s not important, you take a screen shot of most offside decisions in top level football, correct or incorrect one......... with the exceptions of some set pieces, the AR will be slightly behind or ahead of the 2nd last defender regularly. Your point really is clutching at straws I’m afraid.
     
  10. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    So, the AR is not in line with the 2nd last defender. Which is where he should be? Not "just" a wee bit to the side or a shoe lace to the other side. The fact he is not in line (he is out the 18 whereas defender is in the 18) means he was not in line..
    no straws here, just making comment on what is pictured. This is probably the most crucial call this AR will ever have to make. He simply has to be 100% in line. If he is, then in the debrief, it can be put down to an error. If he is not in line, then in the debrief, no matter what he saw or how he saw it, that will be the over riding fact.
     
  11. Ref-Al

    Ref-Al Member Level 6 Referee

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    It is physically impossible to be in line with the 2nd last defender a lot of the time. Unless you are telepathic, you can not guess which way the will move and how quickly they will move. There will be some great examples of offsides given that are correct and the AR is in a similar position to this. Your talking like the AR was on the pen spot and the player on the pen area line. One was just inside, one was just out, the line is about 3 inches wide, that’s pretty dam close.
     
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  12. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    It close, no doubts, and yes, as close, possibly closer than I would imagine I would be. But, that's why those guys are at the top, no margin of error. We will never know but my take is, if the AR was just that 3 inches to the right, he would have called that correctly.
     
  13. Ref-Al

    Ref-Al Member Level 6 Referee

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    No margin of error? Your talking like a TV pundit.

    He was in a perfectly good place to make the call, he made the wrong call. Rush of adrenaline? Phased by the occasion? Bribery conspicary theory? Daydreaming about what he wanted for dinner that night? All more likely a reason that he got it wrong than where he was positioned.
     
  14. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    He was not in line, so, only imo, he is not in the perfect place to call it.

    If you are saying he is in line, then, as much as opinions on interpretation, tolerance levels and match control can vary from person to person, unless overnight I have had major eye surgery and not known it, the AR is not in a perfect positon factually. 3 inch to the right and again, only my meaningless take on it, (leaving aside conspiracy, sore tummy etc), I think he gets it right.
     
  15. CapnBloodbeard

    CapnBloodbeard Well-Known Member

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    But the AR isn't out of the PA at all. You seem to be the only person thinking he's not in line....
    AR and defender are both on the line. A moment later when the ball is actually kicked both are on the GL side of the 18 yard line.
     
  16. AlexF

    AlexF Well-Known Member

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    As the image above is a bit tough to see, I've taken my own screenshot, and zoomed in a bit to show the relevant bits...
    As we can see, the defender (red) is inside the penalty area, and one of the attackers (white) is about a half yard behind the "offside line". Note that the one behind with his hand in the air doesn't come into play at all.

    The AR is about halfway between the defender and attacker, but has a lean that put his eyes (more or less) in the middle of the defender's body. Regardless, this angle SHOULD have given the AR a sufficient view to see that the play was not offside. -1.png
     
  17. CapnBloodbeard

    CapnBloodbeard Well-Known Member

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    We're trying to determine the position of the AR's head to a matter of inches using a camera shot that's at an angle to the defensive line thus has significant parallax error. This is a rather pointless exercise.

    There's also a rather concerning irony in the fact that this thread was created to argue that if you don't have that perfect perpendicular view then you can't judge it accurately - yet with a clearly NOT perpendicular view a number of referees on here think the position can be judged accurately!

    Talk about missing the point :cool::wall:
     
  18. AlexF

    AlexF Well-Known Member

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    This, unfortunately, isn't a great example of that -- there have been other better ones (there was one in WCQ in Europe earlier this year where a player in onside position was ~10 yards in front of the AR, while the defender was ~35-40 yards away, but the AR was completely in the wrong line.

    That would be a good example.

    This one's a relatively tight position, no matter how you look at it, but the AR should be able to use the penalty area line to help guide his judgement. In short, there are cues here that can be used, and yet the judgement was still poor, unfortunately.
     
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  19. WilliamD

    WilliamD Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    I was waiting for someone to post this clip...thought it was timely given how some were destroying CARs on the other thread. I'll take some of my Sunday CARs over this guy - sorry!

    ;)
     
  20. RustyRef

    RustyRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Am I missing something obvious? He is in a perfect position, maybe, just maybe, he's leaning a little to the right, but that is natural as he's getting ready to follow in the shot.

    It is a terrible decision, but I don't think the ARs positioning comes into the reasoning for it.
     
  21. Brian Hamilton

    Brian Hamilton I am the storm Observer/Tutor

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    Consider the two incorrect offside decisions in SWFC vs LUFC just over a week ago. Similar to this game, the AR was in a great position but made a poor call, firstly to give an offside rather than LUFC get a corner; secondly to give an offside and chalk off a perfectly good goal for SWFC. You can be in the best position ever, but still get a call wrong. Like this guy did. **** happens.
     
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  22. RustyRef

    RustyRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Completely agree. Obviously assistants should be level with the 2nd last defender, but will still make mistakes as we saw in this case and the Wednesday vs Leeds game, but equally will sometimes not be level and still get it spot on.

    The problem is the punishment doesn't always fit the crime, and it really comes down to luck. The assistant in the Ghana game will presumably be getting a 7.9, as will the assistant who disallowed Wednesday's goal when Kieran Lee wasn't even close to being offside. Yet the other assistant in that game, who made just as bad an offside call, will get away with just losing 0.1 marks as it didn't constitute an incorrect KMI.

    For those who don't know what myself and Brian are talking about, the incident below was flagged as offside. You could forgive it if the defender was stepping out as the attacker moved in, but he wasn't. The assistant is in a perfect position, just makes a mess of it, and I think it is almost identical to the incident in the Ghana game.

    [​IMG]
     

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