A&H

Open Age The moment a player uses foul and abusive and you know you've got them

If you don't trust your assistant, don't have them on your game? You cant pick and choose which decisions you will trust them on
You either trust them 100% or 0%

imo of course

not quite, you trust them to a certain level depending on the level of the game and their experience
 
The Referee Store
There is nothing wrong with old fashioned shouting, say a defensive wall free kick and you seeing argy bargy in wall as ref is maybe dealing with position of free kick or a sanction, shout (buzz if avail but not raise flag), "Jimmy, watch 5 and 9 pushing and shoving" or indeed yourself, "5, 9, hands off"

I can only speak for Scotland, but prematch, say, dealing with tech areas,,,,referees will say to AR "my tolerance level is your tolerance level", as in, if you are getting referee over to warn or dismiss a coach, then that's what the referee will do...(situation based on you as AR having grief with tech area, not something the referee has picked up on and is going to deal with regardless), the referee is these cases does not want a story, they cant second guess whats going on, they want "warn big man with hat on " or "remove bald guy with green jacket on", simple.

As for being AR and not being consistent with referee again this should be in prematch "run the line the way am refereeing the game, if am letting a bit go, try do same, if am stopping everything and clearly slowing things down, try do the same". its then up to you as a good AR to notice this and indeed not get ref over for yellows which if it was left to the referee he would be either having a word in passing or indeed nothing at all.

Is there really a referee out there who, if called over by the AR and is told "red card Blue 5" , with referee not having seen or heard incident, would not actually action the AR instruction? If so, pointless you having NAR , if nothing else away from the decisions in the game, that AR is, deliberately or not, going to struggle to give you the assistance that you deserve and require for the remainder of the game, human nature says that guy, when he see's same thing later in game, is he going to call it? 99% no, whats the point you already dismissed his advice previously.

Am not talking about a tackle you are both looking at and might have a diff of opinion over sanction, thats where the referee steps up to the plate and calls it, but, to try to have a say on something you have not seen or heard is very risky. again, only my opinion....
 
not quite, you trust them to a certain level depending on the level of the game and their experience

Can you explain? Do you then only trust them on ball in and out of play? Only trust them on things you are also looking at ? Only trust them if they seem to be adamant? What is the tolerance or guideline for how much you trust a NAR ? Only trust them if they are taller than you? I am struggling to see why you would rank them on a level of trust.
 
There is nothing wrong with old fashioned shouting, say a defensive wall free kick and you seeing argy bargy in wall as ref is maybe dealing with position of free kick or a sanction, shout (buzz if avail but not raise flag), "Jimmy, watch 5 and 9 pushing and shoving" or indeed yourself, "5, 9, hands off"

I can only speak for Scotland, but prematch, say, dealing with tech areas,,,,referees will say to AR "my tolerance level is your tolerance level", as in, if you are getting referee over to warn or dismiss a coach, then that's what the referee will do...(situation based on you as AR having grief with tech area, not something the referee has picked up on and is going to deal with regardless), the referee is these cases does not want a story, they cant second guess whats going on, they want "warn big man with hat on " or "remove bald guy with green jacket on", simple.

As for being AR and not being consistent with referee again this should be in prematch "run the line the way am refereeing the game, if am letting a bit go, try do same, if am stopping everything and clearly slowing things down, try do the same". its then up to you as a good AR to notice this and indeed not get ref over for yellows which if it was left to the referee he would be either having a word in passing or indeed nothing at all.

Is there really a referee out there who, if called over by the AR and is told "red card Blue 5" , with referee not having seen or heard incident, would not actually action the AR instruction? If so, pointless you having NAR , if nothing else away from the decisions in the game, that AR is, deliberately or not, going to struggle to give you the assistance that you deserve and require for the remainder of the game, human nature says that guy, when he see's same thing later in game, is he going to call it? 99% no, whats the point you already dismissed his advice previously.

Am not talking about a tackle you are both looking at and might have a diff of opinion over sanction, thats where the referee steps up to the plate and calls it, but, to try to have a say on something you have not seen or heard is very risky. again, only my opinion....

before taking any action i will listen to why the AR wants him sent off and if i agree take that action, if i dont, i'll explain why. same might go for ball in and out of play of free kick decisions if i dont agree with the signals he's giving me (though that's a very rare situation)
 
How can you explain why when you have not seen or heard the said incident?

Over ruling AR say over offside because you are in a better position/angle is fine, you can certainly make a call on that

The AR is not there to be persuasive, am only 2nd guessing but say your AR was a calm confident policeman by trade who gave you a clear and convincing description of an off the ball, you are really going to go with that, other than a shy nervous 2nd game student who might have seen the same incident but is not able to deliver his message to you as commanding as PC AR. As other poster has said, if AR flags its because they have something to say that needs dealt with. You cant belittle the game incident based on the mannerisms or confidence of the AR, if he has seen Blue 5 punch, then he has seen Blue 5 punch !! The fact you might not buy wholly into what he is saying should not come into it, the fact he has got you over should cover that aspect.
 
Can you explain? Do you then only trust them on ball in and out of play? Only trust them on things you are also looking at ? Only trust them if they seem to be adamant? What is the tolerance or guideline for how much you trust a NAR ? Only trust them if they are taller than you? I am struggling to see why you would rank them on a level of trust.

I'll only listen to them if they've got black hair

of course it depends on various factors, the level of the game, the amount of games they've done at that level being the most important. If they're very inexperienced i'm likely to try and make it as easy for them as possible by taking as much of the decision making out of their hands as possible. i'll take the lead on direction for all ball in and out of play decisions and tell them i'll not expect them to get involved with free kick decisions, unless they want to. obviously they still assist with offsides and indicating ball out of play.

trust may not have been the correct word to use however
 
Not really relevant but, doing a top level semi pro game here some 10 years ago, I binned my NAR at half time, he was (and I said this to him), a waste of space, embarrassing and causing more problems than it was worth. In his defence he was like a last min replacement and around 70 years old, so credit is due for offering to do a game, but still.
Post match, the supervisor ripped me a new one.
For relieving the NAR of his duties ? No, for waiting till half time to do it :(
 
How can you explain why when you have not seen or heard the said incident?

Over ruling AR say over offside because you are in a better position/angle is fine, you can certainly make a call on that

The AR is not there to be persuasive, am only 2nd guessing but say your AR was a calm confident policeman by trade who gave you a clear and convincing description of an off the ball, you are really going to go with that, other than a shy nervous 2nd game student who might have seen the same incident but is not able to deliver his message to you as commanding as PC AR. As other poster has said, if AR flags its because they have something to say that needs dealt with. You cant belittle the game incident based on the mannerisms or confidence of the AR, if he has seen Blue 5 punch, then he has seen Blue 5 punch !! The fact you might not buy wholly into what he is saying should not come into it, the fact he has got you over should cover that aspect.

of course i'm not going to ignore an incident of violent conduct. i'm not saying i'll ignore their opinion, i'm saying i'll disagree with them if i dont agree with their interpretation of an incident (whether i've seen it partially or not at all) i'll explain why i wont take the action they request.
 
You cant disagree with something you aint seen ! Madness !!

ah well.....if it works for you I guess that is fine.
 
If we look at the good book laws 5 and 6

Law 5 says
The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including
whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final.

Law 6 says
They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the
Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee.

So again I would say in all cases the final decision rests with the referee. The assistant needs to provide the facts. And the fact is of the assistant describes a red card offence my final decision will be a red card. But I wont go red card unless they clearly describe to me the offence that has taken place.
Similarly if i am an assistant I would never command the referee to make a decision. I would tell him what i have seen and he goes from there. If he wants my opinion he can have it, if not, I'll discuss it with him after the game of i think he is wrong. Its been said in this thread before but assist not insist.
 
You cant give the correct call when discussing it in the shower after the game ! You are meant to get the decisions right out there on the park !!
 
You cant give the correct call when discussing it in the shower after the game ! You are meant to get the decisions right out there on the park !!
And if you give the referee the correct facts then he'll make the right decision.

Lets take your example. Im the ref and you are my assistant. You call me over and you say...
]

"number 5, middle of park with orange boots on, red card and restart with the throw as ball was out of play"

I then trot off, show number 5 the red card. He says why? I say because Ciley says so. No idea what offence you've committed but Ciley says red so enjoy your shower.

I then get home. I need to report this offence. But I cant because I still have no idea what it is they've done because you havent told me.

Lets say we discussed if after the game and hypothetically there was VC offence. Lets say a headbutt.

My report says in the 59th minute my assistant called me over and said red card for number 5. I showed the player the red carr and dismissed him from the field of play.

You're not really providing any facts to the referee which not only is not supported in law but creates issues further.down the line.

I'd prefer that conversation to go more like his..

Ciley: James, number 5, he's just headbutted number 9.
Me: ok thats violent conduct, im going to send him off, thanks for alerting me.

Then when it somes to reporting I can then write something a bit more like whats expected of me along the lines of

In the 59th minute my assistant, Ciley Myrus, informed me that number 5 (insert name) head butted his opponent. I hadnt seen the incident however based on my assistants description of events I deemed this to be violent conduct and dismissed the player from the field of play.

You'd also send in your report in the normal format and we're all happy..
 
ok its a bit diff in Scotland, same situation, the report from ref would be

in 59th min I dismissed Red 5 for VC on advice of AR" ". (the ref cannot provide description as they have not seen it)

The assistant report would have the description of events.

The conversation with me as AR would be "red card Blue 5 violent conduct, thats him over there (point) and restart with throw in"
The conversation I would have with player *as ref* would be "Blue 5, on advice of my assistant am sending you off for violent conduct"
 
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ok its a bit diff in Scotland, same situation, the report from ref would be

in 59th min I dismissed Red 5 for VC on advice of AR" ". (the ref cannot provide description as they have not seen it)

The assistant report would have the description of events.

The conversation with me as AR would be "red card Blue 5 violent conduct, thats him over there (point) and restart with throw in"
The conversation I would have with player *as ref* would be "Blue 5, on advice of my assistant am sending you off for violent conduct"

i would actually do the same when reporting a red card in this manner. I have done twice, once for offinabus and once for spitting.

something like "on the advice of my assistant XXXX, i sent off the above named player for spitting/offinabus. XXXX will also be submitting a report"

In both instances i asked what had happened and then said i'd be sending both off to which the AR didnt object. i hadn't seen either offence but both were clearly red card offences as described by the ARs so i had no issue accepting their advice.
 
Indeed, you cant as referee report a player for spitting if you have not seen it, however, you can report that you acted on the advise of AR
 
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Indeed, you cant as referee report a player for spitting if you have not seen it, however, you can report that you acted on the advise of AR
No dispute here. The point I am making is that the final decision is with referee. The assistant cannot command a sanction, he must supply the information and where neccesaary leave the referee nondoubt what that decision should be.
 
If an AR has seen the spit and the ref does not act accordingly then the whole refereeing team is as well going home for the day.
 
If an AR has seen the spit and the ref does not act accordingly then the whole refereeing team is as well going home for the day.

i dont think anyone is suggesting they'd do any different if that's what the AR says he's seen

it's more to do with the ref taking final responsibility for the on field disciplinary action

but anyway...i think this has been discussed to death this afternoon!
 
If an AR has seen the spit and the ref does not act accordingly then the whole refereeing team is as well going home for the day.

At the end of the day, a spit is a spit. Think a slightly different example are those more subjective 'orange card' tackles that could be a caution or could be a dismissal for SFP. I personally would like to speak to my assistant to know exactly what they've seen if they're flagging for it. 99 times out of 100 I would go with their decision, especially if they were better positioned, but I still think it's imperative you know exactly what has happened.
 
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