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Rolling subs - should there be a limit?

Discussion in 'Your fixtures' started by OIREF!, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. OIREF!

    OIREF! Well-Known Member

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    Had an interesting situation this past Saturday, something I'd never really thought about before. Good, competitive 17s game, home team won 2-0 but away team very much in the game throughout. As normal in this area teams used rolling subs. During second half, home team manager made many substitutions, 12 in total, which he's perfectly entitled to do. No suggestion that he was playing silly b~@gers, just giving his players a run out or rest when needed. Of course, the away team caught on to this and started asking about added time etc. Had a polite word with the home manager at one of his changes and made him aware of the possibility of more added time than normal and no problem from him on that point. Eventually played 8 mins added time and no issues at the final whistle. However, I can see the potential for this to spill over in the case where the away team might have been 1-0 down and chasing the game. I spoke with a colleague who does 13s/14s matches and he finds that over use of rolling subs really breaks up games at that age.
    Anyone have any opinions? Should there be some limitation on rolling subs and if so, how?
     
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  4. Ben Knipe

    Ben Knipe Member Level 7 Referee

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    I understand it at the younger ages as obviously problems can be caused if a player "doesn't get enough game time", however I think there should be a limit at OA.
     
  5. Yampy

    Yampy Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    It's an obvious flaw with the system which can be exploited by the more 'cynical' coaches and managers. It might take a few seasons to find a sweetspot on what constitutes the best limit but I do believe a limited number of substitutions should be introduced. Rugby League has a fixed number of interchanges per team per game and I feel it could be viable in football, even with the extra workload on referees recording the change.
     
  6. WilliamD

    WilliamD Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    For OA - If there are too many subs in a rolling subs game I will not add the full time it takes. 30 seconds becomes 5 seconds of added time etc. But to be honest I have never had a major issue with this in OA.
     
  7. jofusref

    jofusref Well-Known Member

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    rolling subs are just another stupid fifa idea, the same as golden/silver goals. fortunatly now in the fifa bin of stupid ideas hope fully soon to be joined by any referee who needs a can of shaving foam to control a free kick, oh boy. and dont even start me on stopping the game so that some guy can look at a video,as the greatest referee in rugby nigel owen said this is not soccer, well this is not rugby
     
  8. RefJef

    RefJef Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    I can't remember how & why it came up, but I do remember my RDO reminding us that rolling subs were at our (the ref's) discretion and by all means not allow them if a coach was using them to burn off time at the end of a close game/ continually break up the flow of a game.

    As someone involved in a number of roles in youth (U14s - U18) football, I do think that on the whole rolling subs are good.

    (And it's not just good for the youths - as someone who plays in a Veterans league, we oldies benefit from it too! Agree, though, not for OA.)
     
  9. xPositor

    xPositor Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    I agree. If a manager is taking the proverbial, you have the option of slowing down their sub cycle. Acknowledge the shout for a substitution to take place, with a "When I'm ready, thank-you". A manager that is playing silly buggers will quickly realise you have worked out what he is doing, and hopefully they won't be so frequent.

    BTW, I agree that they are good for youth (and vets). Not just in terms of giving players game time, but also allowing them to push themselves in bursts, being subbed off to recover.
     
  10. RustyRef

    RustyRef Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't agree at all that you can refuse their requests for changes. As a referee you have to apply the competition laws, and if they say that changes are unlimited then they are just that.
     
  11. santa sangria

    santa sangria Well-Known Member

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    Can you define rolling subs?

    Up in the far North we have rolling subs in hobby leagues and licensed lowest 3 leagues. There is even one men's level with rolling subs and NARs.

    In our world play does not stop for rolling subs, so there is no time wasting. Just like changes in basketball and futsal, the players change rapidly during breaks in play, particularly goal kicks. If a player tries to waste time to wait for rolling subs they get warned and then cautioned etc.

    We have to watch for players sneaking yards to get on the pitch in open play, but most refs warn teams before the start to make sure there are only 11 players on. Typically, in hobby leagues and the lowest divisions, if the ball is being collected by a GK from a ditch no one minds masses of changes with a few extra feet on the pitch.

    Rolling subs is something I am so used to that I am surprised at the backlash. It has to be managed... but it doesn't seem anything like as ludacris as CARs!
     
  12. CapnBloodbeard

    CapnBloodbeard Well-Known Member

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    No. You don't get to refuse a sub.

    You can get a little deaf though - I get very deaf in the final minute. And I tend to get a bit deaf if one team is looking to take a quick TI too....
     
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  13. Yampy

    Yampy Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    It isn't the same as you see in futsal but a team may have up to 5 substitutes who can become players at any time during the game but following the correct substitution procedure of 11-a-side. The substituted player then becomes a substitute and is able to return to the pitch as a player later in the game. The problem is basically the amount of substitutions a team can now make and the time it takes up e.g. tactical time wasting, breaking up the rhythm of the game.
    It's common at youth levels and low level grass roots football for adults. And veterans football, too.
     
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  14. arbitre

    arbitre Member

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    I always add the full 30 seconds for each change. It does not impress some coaches when there are 7 or 8 minutes of added time, especially when they were 'just playing the game'!
    However, maybe rolling subs should not be allowed in the last 15 minutes, except for injury. I find that most of the 'time wasting subs' are used in this period.
     
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  15. santa sangria

    santa sangria Well-Known Member

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    I would call that unlimited subs.
    Rolling subs up here are where they can come on and off as they please even while play is active.
    Yeah...unlimited subs... you are asking for trouble there from wise-a coaches...
     
  16. santa sangria

    santa sangria Well-Known Member

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    That said we have a thing in some higher youth leagues where there are usually 11+7 and all 7 subs allowed, that each team is not allowed to make more than 3 sets of substitutions each half* This means they can't do 7 separate subs in the last 5 minutes to kill the game.

    *Strictly speaking I can't remember the exact rule and can't find it anywhere;) but I am 85% sure that's it
     
  17. GraemeS

    GraemeS Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    Oh I think rolling subs (generally called roll-on/roll-off round here) are absolutely a good idea for grassroots football and should be expanded further.

    Imagine being a player and dragging yourself to a match on a Sunday morning, warming up, staying warm on the side of the pitch and then not getting on because your league only allows 3 subs and 15+ players have turned up. I can't imagine players would continue to turn up if that happens to them too often and that would be a problem for the grassroots game as a whole.

    Having said all that, I think referees need to be taught how to "manage" roll-on/roll-off substitutes better. I'm going to disagree slightly with a few posters above and quote the following sections of Law 3.3:
    Taken together and in the absence of any guidance on when a referee MUST give permission/a signal, I think those 3 clauses absolutely allow a referee to delay a substitution, at least until the next stoppage.

    Personally. when refereeing in roll-on/roll-off leagues, I'll make sure I'm using one of my watches as a stop/start watch, stop it as soon as I get the substitution signal and not restart until the ball re-enters play. I'll also refuse or delay substitutes as soon as they attempt a third in quick succession - there's always a justification for it, but you can just say "not right now manager" and that should at least imply that you think they're pushing their luck.
     
  18. Yampy

    Yampy Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    Manager : Ref! Sub, please.
    Ref : Not right now.
    Manager : What!? You're having a laugh, ref!
    Ref : This is your third sub in quick succession. I'm delaying it.
    Manager : My player's injured. I need to replace him.
    Ref : Sorry, too many subs in the last 5 minutes.
    Manager : So I have to play with a man down until you allow it?
    Ref : Yes, give it another 5 and I'll let the sub on.
    Manager : Cheers Ref. Thanks for explaining it. We'll try and hang and not concede until then.

    Or, I could think of an alternative news version which may be closer to the truth.
     
  19. GraemeS

    GraemeS Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    Well first off, I'd never be daft enough to actually explicitly say what the reason was or how frequent I consider to be unacceptable, that just gives the manager more information to game the system with.

    If a player has actually gone down injured, you are obliged to be over there seeing if he needs treatment, you would stop your watch anyway, the trainer would have come on etc etc etc. In that situation, the sub would of course be eventually allowed. However if the manager has just decided one of his previously fine players has taken a knock and there's no evidence of it from the player, then you'd simply tell him it's not a suitable break in play and get on with your life.

    There's no reason to end up in extended arguments with the bench . You don't have to do it, subs require your permission (end of) and if you're delaying the play to discuss the issue, you may as well have just allowed the sub.
     
  20. Yampy

    Yampy Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    It's not your decision to make. You're the ref, not the physio or doctor.
     
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  21. GraemeS

    GraemeS Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    And substitutes require the ref's permission.

    If a player's injured he can sit down and wait for play to stop, ask permission to leave the pitch for treatment or struggle on. None of which require the ref to authorise a substitution - exactly as would be the case if you were in a limited-subs match and a team had used them all.

    An injury does not have to result in a substitution, the two things aren't necessarily connected.
     
  22. Tino Best

    Tino Best Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    I didnt realise that some OA had rol on roll off subs, I thought it was only youth football. As for breaking up play we can add on time as we require and we all see it on TV where they make subs to waste time at the end of the game. The famous 30 second appearence!
     

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