RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
Ditto....
Referee's "Club Marks"
- Thread starter Kes
- Start date
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Ditto....
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
No. The problem lies with player/manager expectations.
When a ref turns up who doesn't compromise the LOTG to allow for their poor behaviour they get poor marks, this can easily be replicated across a range of games. Especially if the appointments secretary keeps putting them on 'problem' games.
This also exposes another flaw in the system......very easy for promotion candidates to be manipulated onto games where they will attract good or poor marks depending on their 'style'......which means that their whole promotion season can be manipulated
I've always been against club marks for a number of reasons, but my opposition has always come down to the fact that I don't believe club marks accurately reflect the performance of the referee. In my experience, I was almost always marked lower by the losing team, as were most other refs I spoke to. Lets be honest, the managers who will impartially mark a performance are in the minority.....not that I blame them, people get caught up in the "emotion" of the game.
My league did away with club marks last season. They researched them and found that on average, the losing team marked between 15-20% lower; what's the point? By default, you get refs who referee for club marks, which has to be detrimental? The league staff are trying to get to games for every ref and so far it seems to be working.
My league did away with club marks last season. They researched them and found that on average, the losing team marked between 15-20% lower; what's the point? By default, you get refs who referee for club marks, which has to be detrimental? The league staff are trying to get to games for every ref and so far it seems to be working.
Yampy
RefChat Addict
I could edit my post, too.
The principle of club marks is valid, its the scoring method itself that I disagree with. When you are assessed, there is a long list of points that you are scored against. When a club marks you, they are just asked for a number up to 100, and justify the score if it is below a certain level. It would be better if a simplified list of questions are put together, that when summed gave you your total club mark out of 100. Nothing as long/complex as what an assessor would complete, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with say five questions that the clubs should mark you against. Each question could itself ask for justification if below a set score.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
I personally think that would be even worse!!
At least by only asking these people to come up with a mark out of 100, you're generalising.
Once you start asking unqualified, unimpartial people to give these opinions in a more specific way, you're really asking for trouble.
I don't have a viable solution myself I'm sorry to say, but I think it's also fair to say that this club marking system in it's current form, is more of a gauge of a referees popularity with the coaches or teams on the day rather than his ability as a referee.
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
And provided it was within the same 1 minute I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Mooseybaby
Retired big bad baldy in all black!
There's pros and cons to any system, clubs marks is no different....
End of the day, the club marks system isn't something I am bothered about or will ever really effect me. As said in another thread, I have no intention of ever going for "promotion" and certainly don't lose any sleep after game wondering what mark a manager has given me.
Last season I did a game where the away team's club linesman went walkabout immediately before kick off. I spoke to the away team manager and as a result of our chat, the manager took over flag duties. With the sound of kick off whistle, he went from being a reasonable guy to being a flag happy hindering pain in the backside with highly questionable honesty....
Main incident of note, midway through the 2nd half, home team corner is half cleared. Some away team defenders move out of the box along with the attackers. I noticed home team no7 standing level with the penalty spot, on the left hand side of the box completely unmarked. Looking across the box, there were 2 away defenders still standing on the posts either side of their keeper after the corner. Something in the back of my mind said if the ball goes to 7, I bet the flag goes up. sure enough as the ball is played out to home 7 the flag goes up immediately, I waved play on home 7 cuts across the area, then slides the ball to a team mate for a tap in. Away manager is now waving in a frenzy and shouting "offside ref". From my position on the edge of the box I called across and pointed out it couldn't possibly be offside with the 2 defenders still standing next on the posts and their keeper also still on the line. Instead of accepting the over-rule, he continued to protest, by this point the home manager is shouting over to him, "You're having a laugh mate, you had 2 defenders on the post", but still the complaints continued, his players just stared at the floor and never said a word!
After the game, I was told by a 3rd party that he was going to give me "the lowest possible mark", to which I responded whatever, it's up to him doesn't bother or effect me. Was his marking of my performance based on the entire game in which I had given his side 2 penalties or that one incident where he was shown to be wrong/dishonest (only he will know which). If a promotion candidate who's marks were affected by one or two managers like this and ultimately denied promotion as a result, could understand them being justifiably annoyed that a season's hard work would count for nothing due to these individuals post match marking of their performance based on their emotions at the time and possible dishonesty.
End of the day, the club marks system isn't something I am bothered about or will ever really effect me. As said in another thread, I have no intention of ever going for "promotion" and certainly don't lose any sleep after game wondering what mark a manager has given me.
Last season I did a game where the away team's club linesman went walkabout immediately before kick off. I spoke to the away team manager and as a result of our chat, the manager took over flag duties. With the sound of kick off whistle, he went from being a reasonable guy to being a flag happy hindering pain in the backside with highly questionable honesty....
Main incident of note, midway through the 2nd half, home team corner is half cleared. Some away team defenders move out of the box along with the attackers. I noticed home team no7 standing level with the penalty spot, on the left hand side of the box completely unmarked. Looking across the box, there were 2 away defenders still standing on the posts either side of their keeper after the corner. Something in the back of my mind said if the ball goes to 7, I bet the flag goes up. sure enough as the ball is played out to home 7 the flag goes up immediately, I waved play on home 7 cuts across the area, then slides the ball to a team mate for a tap in. Away manager is now waving in a frenzy and shouting "offside ref". From my position on the edge of the box I called across and pointed out it couldn't possibly be offside with the 2 defenders still standing next on the posts and their keeper also still on the line. Instead of accepting the over-rule, he continued to protest, by this point the home manager is shouting over to him, "You're having a laugh mate, you had 2 defenders on the post", but still the complaints continued, his players just stared at the floor and never said a word!
After the game, I was told by a 3rd party that he was going to give me "the lowest possible mark", to which I responded whatever, it's up to him doesn't bother or effect me. Was his marking of my performance based on the entire game in which I had given his side 2 penalties or that one incident where he was shown to be wrong/dishonest (only he will know which). If a promotion candidate who's marks were affected by one or two managers like this and ultimately denied promotion as a result, could understand them being justifiably annoyed that a season's hard work would count for nothing due to these individuals post match marking of their performance based on their emotions at the time and possible dishonesty.
holbeach ref
Member
As well as teams marking low, I know a team that always gave 100
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Is it fair that people without the faintest clue about referee or any capacity/reason to look at it objectively influences your refereeing career?
On the flip side, is it fair that your career is controlled by a couple of inspections a year, especially given that there are more than a few completely inept assessors out there?
The obvious answer to both is 'no', so what do we do?
I think it's important to gain a measure of how referees tend to perform week in, week out - rather than how they do perform when they know they've being watched (some turn into completely different referees).
I also know one FIFA AR in my area who has one particur basic lack of knowledge of a particular law. But I bet he simply hasn't committed that error while being assessed either as an AR or ref (refs at a high local level too).
My old area began introducing club marks, but it wouldn't influence promotion/relegation. However, marks trending particularly high or particularly low would get them to send somebody out, particularly if it's a new referee, just to keep an eye on them. I think that's a good approach - funnily enough this was brought in at the request of clubs, then nobody bothered to submit reports!
The obvious downside is that it encourages referees to referee in a manner that appeases the team. If you're AR and the ball is 90% off the field but travelling down the line and both teams think it's out, why wouldn't you please both teams and just stick your flag up? (and we've had this argument on here!!! I'm not encouraging that approach, though some do, simply highlighting how this sort of thing can affect judgement). Although I think assessors prioritise pleasing the players over actually refereeing these days anyway, which is refereeing's best kept dirty little secret.
On the flip side, is it fair that your career is controlled by a couple of inspections a year, especially given that there are more than a few completely inept assessors out there?
The obvious answer to both is 'no', so what do we do?
I think it's important to gain a measure of how referees tend to perform week in, week out - rather than how they do perform when they know they've being watched (some turn into completely different referees).
I also know one FIFA AR in my area who has one particur basic lack of knowledge of a particular law. But I bet he simply hasn't committed that error while being assessed either as an AR or ref (refs at a high local level too).
My old area began introducing club marks, but it wouldn't influence promotion/relegation. However, marks trending particularly high or particularly low would get them to send somebody out, particularly if it's a new referee, just to keep an eye on them. I think that's a good approach - funnily enough this was brought in at the request of clubs, then nobody bothered to submit reports!
The obvious downside is that it encourages referees to referee in a manner that appeases the team. If you're AR and the ball is 90% off the field but travelling down the line and both teams think it's out, why wouldn't you please both teams and just stick your flag up? (and we've had this argument on here!!! I'm not encouraging that approach, though some do, simply highlighting how this sort of thing can affect judgement). Although I think assessors prioritise pleasing the players over actually refereeing these days anyway, which is refereeing's best kept dirty little secret.
Monotone Whistle
Well-Known Member
But it's only a part of the process. L5 -4 is only relevant if you have less than 5 assessments. L4 promotion/demotion - it is half of the criteria, and if you have half-decent assessments you will never be demoted regardless of club marks.
Just trying to clarify for those not aware of the process.
Just trying to clarify for those not aware of the process.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Indeed.
Also, on more than one occasion, after being handed my home team sheet prior to kick off, I've noticed my score already written in.
It's not. Your ref sec will collate the info and usually won't provide a detailed breakdown, but an average.
Only at level 3 and above are club marks visible per game and the teams mark.
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