Red card or not

[one]

This question came up after a discussion with a colleague "based on real events". The question is not about what I should have done before the event but about what I should do at this point.

Immediately after the fulltime whistle I walk to join AR1 on the way to change rooms, but stand there with AR1 for AR2 to join us who is walking towards us. 4 scenarios:

1. We are standing between the two technical areas close to the half way line but just outside the filed of play

1.a. I hear (and see) a player in his TA clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.

1.b. I hear (and see) a player on the field of play clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.


2. Same as 1. But we are standing jut inside the field of play

2.a. same as 1.a.
2.b. same as 1.b

What should I do? With the main question being, do I show a red card to the offender?

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

This question came up after a discussion with a colleague "based on real events". The question is not about what I should have done before the event but about what I should do at this point.

Immediately after the fulltime whistle I walk to join AR1 on the way to change rooms, but stand there with AR1 for AR2 to join us who is walking towards us. 4 scenarios:

1. We are standing between the two technical areas close to the half way line but just outside the filed of play

1.a. I hear (and see) a player in his TA clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.

1.b. I hear (and see) a player on the field of play clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.


2. Same as 1. But we are standing jut inside the field of play

2.a. same as 1.a.
2.b. same as 1.b

What should I do? With the main question being, do I show a red card to the offender?

I would suggest using the red card to confirm the sanction in all four cases.

 

[socal lurker]

At the risk of fighting the hypothetical, if the language was “about“ me rather than “at” me, Ikm less inclined to “hear“ it. Of course there is the “about” language that is at attempt to disguise “at” language, which I would certainly ”hear. (That said, I imagine that @one is talking about language that clearly is asking for an OFFINABUS send off, so I may be taking this sideways.)

back to what the question is really about, I think it is the language in Law 12 about referee authority:

The referee has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including penalties (penalty shoot-out)).​

​

So does IFAB mean literally crossing outside the touchline, or does IFAB mean the immediate area surrounding the field? I tend to agree with @ChasObserverRefDeveloper that they don’t mean to get hyper-technical about stepping across the line, but mean leaving the area of play. (And I don’t think where the player is comes into issue at all.) if this happened to me, I would show the card, and if someone wants to fight about that with an appeal committee, go for it.

 

[Big Cat]

Red for all scenarios IMO

Another one I had last weekend
Ball is going out of play (seemingly) and the manager leaves the TA and sticks his foot out to stop it
Alas, the manager misjudges the flight because the ball has a ton of swerve on it. In doing so, he stops the ball with his foot just inside the touchline. The ball would not have gone out of play. The manager obviously impacted play, but did not stop a promising attack or anything like that

Who is sending him off? I cautioned him. I would have done the same if I was being observed because the 'Spirit of the Game' trumps my score in terms of what I care about the most. I had to fudge the submission of the caution as there was no matching caution offence

 

[santa sangria]

At the risk of fighting the hypothetical, if the language was “about“ me rather than “at” me, Ikm less inclined to “hear“ it. Of course there is the “about” language that is at attempt to disguise “at” language, which I would certainly ”hear. (That said, I imagine that @one is talking about language that clearly is asking for an OFFINABUS send off, so I may be taking this sideways.)

back to what the question is really about, I think it is the language in Law 12 about referee authority:

The referee has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including penalties (penalty shoot-out)).​

​

So does IFAB mean literally crossing outside the touchline, or does IFAB mean the immediate area surrounding the field? I tend to agree with @ChasObserverRefDeveloper that they don’t mean to get hyper-technical about stepping across the line, but mean leaving the area of play. (And I don’t think where the player is comes into issue at all.) if this happened to me, I would show the card, and if someone wants to fight about that with an appeal committee, go for it.

Would it be better if the same language was used as the disciplinary section “… must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area.”?

There’s probably a better way. At least that verbiage means we can get rid of a sent off player behind the fence next to the bench at grassroots… still could be more intuitive and flexible.

 

[socal lurker]

Would it be better if the same language was used as the disciplinary section “… must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area.”?

Just one more item on the long list of places that IFAB language is less than clear . . .

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

This question came up after a discussion with a colleague "based on real events". The question is not about what I should have done before the event but about what I should do at this point.

Immediately after the fulltime whistle I walk to join AR1 on the way to change rooms, but stand there with AR1 for AR2 to join us who is walking towards us. 4 scenarios:

1. We are standing between the two technical areas close to the half way line but just outside the filed of play

1.a. I hear (and see) a player in his TA clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.

1.b. I hear (and see) a player on the field of play clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.


2. Same as 1. But we are standing jut inside the field of play

2.a. same as 1.a.
2.b. same as 1.b

What should I do? With the main question being, do I show a red card to the offender?

Using a red in all cases.

I had a similar moment at my last game, after getting changed stood outside the clubhouse waiting for the Referee and a player in a group pipes up "How come we get a speccy c*nt every week?" in a "isn't this weird" way rather than a "that's bad" way. If it had been on the field or straight after the game I would have, at best, just reminded him to mind his language about officials, because it's not meant with any malice. Wouldn't shame anyone for going red for it though

 

[RustyRef]

Technically speaking the laws say that you can't take disciplinary action after the game if you have left the pitch, so it would be a misconduct report rather than showing cards. Suspect I'd be stepping back onto the pitch though and getting the cards out.

My main question would be though, why on earth would you wait for your assistants between the technical areas? That's just asking for trouble and is why a lot of referee coaches would say never blow for full time when you are close to the benches. Make it so that if a coach wants to have a complaint at full time he has to march across the pitch to you, that makes the red card a lot easier to sell than if you have almost put yourself inside his den.

 

[socal lurker]

My main question would be though, why on earth would you wait for your assistants between the technical areas?

I think he realized that and was why he framed the question the way he did about not asking for advice about what he should have done before hand. We’ve all done things we wish we hadn’t, but that doesn’t take away the question of how we deal with the mess once it’s there.

 

[one]

Looks like most are on the same page with me except my colleague who was adamant to go with the wording of law and not show the red card. I couldn't argue with that either.

@socal lurker , yeah this is about the wording and the use of the word "field of play" which has a clear definition in law. I'm not going there with "at" and "about", tomaito, tomaato

In terms of why wait there? @socal lurker is spot on, we knew it wasn't the best idea. Or in the case of the actual event, walking past a teams TA to go to the change rooms after a spicy game.

 

[RustyRef]

Looks like most are on the same page with me except my colleague who was adamant to go with the wording of law and not show the red card. I couldn't argue with that either.

@socal lurker , yeah this is about the wording and the use of the word "field of play" which has a clear definition in law. I'm not going there with "at" and "about", tomaito, tomaato

In terms of why wait there? @socal lurker is spot on, we knew it wasn't the best idea. Or in the case of the actual event, walking past a teams TA to go to the change rooms after a spicy game.

I think it is one of those where slavishly applying the laws doesn't help anyone. Yes, if you were in the car park or changing room when it happened then showing a card would be wrong, but when you have just left the pitch and are still stood next to it everyone would support the card being shown. It doesn't even help the offender as it would go from a standard dismissal to a misconduct report, so they are hardly likely to complain that you were off the pitch.

 

[Viridis1886]

I think it is one of those where slavishly applying the laws doesn't help anyone. Yes, if you were in the car park or changing room when it happened then showing a card would be wrong, but when you have just left the pitch and are still stood next to it everyone would support the card being shown. It doesn't even help the offender as it would go from a standard dismissal to a misconduct report, so they are hardly likely to complain that you were off the pitch.

Are misconduct reports treated differently with different consequences?

 

[RustyRef]

Are misconduct reports treated differently with different consequences?

They can be in England. A standard OFFINABUS red card is a 2 match ban and £45 fine, if charged with misconduct they can deviate away from that and will often give a day based suspension rather than match based.

 

[SammyT5]

back to what the question is really about, I think it is the language in Law 12 about referee authority:

The referee has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including penalties (penalty shoot-out)).​

​

So does IFAB mean literally crossing outside the touchline, or does IFAB mean the immediate area surrounding the field? I tend to agree with @ChasObserverRefDeveloper that they don’t mean to get hyper-technical about stepping across the line, but mean leaving the area of play. (And I don’t think where the player is comes into issue at all.) if this happened to me, I would show the card, and if someone wants to fight about that with an appeal committee, go for it.

I tend to agree that they mean the general area of play. Say for instance there was a fight in the TA after the full time whistle, I don’t think any referee would hesitate to show appropriate cards, even though it is technically off the pitch.

 

[Refollie]

At grassroots level where there are no changing rooms, I’ve known referees to gather their stuff together/change out of boots on the FOP for this reason, in case anyone fancies a card-free pop after the final whistle

 

[Redster]

I'd be inclined to point to the fact that law 5 refers to 'The referee:' and does not include the assistants.

Don't think it strictly matters in NSW though. It's still an offence under Table B and will include a minimum fixture suspension of (I think) 3 fixtures, depending on how bad we're talking.

Incidentally, I had a similar issue in a prelim final on Saturday, except I kept the card in the pocket due to my proximity to spectators

 

[one]

At grassroots level where there are no changing rooms, I’ve known referees to gather their stuff together/change out of boots on the FOP for this reason, in case anyone fancies a card-free pop after the final whistle

And I have seen the opposite commonly done. When there are no change rooms or they are far away from the field, host club places chairs outside of field of play (but inside a marked spectator exclusion zone) on the half way line between the TA's for the referees to place their bags and gather before the game, at half time and after the game. The rationale behind it is that it is the safest place in terms of any issues with spectators. However it also means it is the least safe place in terms of any issues with players. However in the latter case, culprits can be identified, theoretically.

 

[DPLewis]

This question came up after a discussion with a colleague "based on real events". The question is not about what I should have done before the event but about what I should do at this point.

Immediately after the fulltime whistle I walk to join AR1 on the way to change rooms, but stand there with AR1 for AR2 to join us who is walking towards us. 4 scenarios:

1. We are standing between the two technical areas close to the half way line but just outside the filed of play

1.a. I hear (and see) a player in his TA clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.

1.b. I hear (and see) a player on the field of play clearly and loudly use offensive language about me.


2. Same as 1. But we are standing jut inside the field of play

2.a. same as 1.a.
2.b. same as 1.b

What should I do? With the main question being, do I show a red card to the offender?

As others have advised, stay on the FOP until every player has left. This should be standard practice.

Having said that, there are cases where a player has seen a referee the day after a game in a supermarket and elsewhere and has abused that Match Official. Of course in such circumstances a RC cannot be issued (who carries them at all times!). What is appropriate is that an Incident Report should be lodged with the relevant Association so that the Disciplinary Committee can take action to sanction that player.