A&H

Offside from off the pitch

Well, I've never said that IFAB could draft worth a damn . . . they are notorious for trying to tie up one little issue and creating 6 new ones.
Fortunately this is an extremely rare circumstance, and for those of us without VAR, we're simply going to make the best judgment we can and rely on Law 18 (common sense) to guide us in making a decision that is fair in the moment.

As far as the defender language, here's what I believe it actually means. (Note that it doesn't say anything about re-entering in there; the re-entering language only applies to attackers.) I believe the defender language isn't about re-entering, but about when we stop considering the defender off the field to be on the goal line. E.g., when a defender takes himself off the field because he is injured or in a fit about a perceived bad call by the ref. Even though he is still off the field, we are to stop "counting" him as a defender "until the next stoppage in play or until the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside its penalty area"--in other words, until the immediate attack is ended so that the attacking team is not unfairly disadvantaged. (And the idea that it is played all the way back by the attacking team and doesn't reset is kinda funny to think about, but in real life, once the ball is far away from the attack, I think IFAB expects us to stop "counting" that off the field defender.)
 
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socal lurker said:
Well, I've never said that IFAB could draft worth a damn . . . they are notorious for trying to tie up one little issue and creating 6 new ones.
Fortunately this is an extremely rare circumstance, and for those of us without VAR, we're simply going to make the best judgment we can and rely on Law 18 (common sense) to guide us in making a decision that is fair in the moment.

As far as the defender language, here's what I believe it actually means. (Note that it doesn't say anything about re-entering in there; the re-entering language only applies to attackers.) I believe the defender language isn't about re-entering, but about when we stop considering the defender off the field to be on the goal line. E.g., when a defender takes himself off the field because he is injured or in a fit about a perceived bad call by the ref. Even though he is still off the field, we are to stop "counting" him as a defender "until the next stoppage in play or until the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside its penalty area"--in other words, until the immediate attack is ended so that the attacking team is not unfairly disadvantaged. (And the idea that it is played all the way back by the attacking team and doesn't reset is kinda funny to think about, but in real life, once the ball is far away from the attack, I think IFAB expects us to stop "counting" that off the field defender.)
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Unfortunately, it doesn't say to stop counting him as a defender, but to keep counting him as a defender...

Anyway, I think my point is made. What on earth does it mean?
 
bloovee said:
Unfortunately, it doesn't say to stop counting him as a defender, but to keep counting him as a defender...

Anyway, I think my point is made. What on earth does it mean?
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I would think it was pretty obviously a mistype on my part. Yes, you KEEP counting him as on the GL until those things happen. And after that you don’t. while I don’t think it is well written, I do think what it means isn’t that complicated to someone more interested in sorting it out that complaining about the drafting. (The attacker portion re coming back onto the field is more confusing.)

the whole point is to prevent the attackers from being unfairly and surprisingly OS while recognizing that once the attack is over, it is no. Longer unfair or a surprise.
 
How many times has this ever happened? For the video in the OP both players have gone off the pitch as part of normal playing motion, I can't ever remember seeing a defender or attacker step off the pitch deliberately to try and get an offside advantage.
 
RustyRef said:
How many times has this ever happened? For the video in the OP both players have gone off the pitch as part of normal playing motion, I can't ever remember seeing a defender or attacker step off the pitch deliberately to try and get an offside advantage.
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You must be younger than I thought. It was commonplace before the "new phase" stuff came in. (Attackers at least - demonstrating that they were definitely not interfering with play; as defenders are always counted for offside even when not interfering - unconscious on the ground even! - it was only confused officials who didn't count a defender who'd stepped over the goal line.) But the law did not specify that. Probably IFAB issued a Q&A at some time, often the precursor to a change in the law.
 
bloovee said:
You must be younger than I thought. It was commonplace before the "new phase" stuff came in. (Attackers at least - demonstrating that they were definitely not interfering with play; as defenders are always counted for offside even when not interfering - unconscious on the ground even! - it was only confused officials who didn't count a defender who'd stepped over the goal line.) But the law did not specify that. Probably IFAB issued a Q&A at some time, often the precursor to a change in the law.
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That's going back to the old "if you were offside you were offside" law, that was decades ago. You have posted about the current laws, and I just cannot remember a player ever stepping off the pitch to try to influence an offside decision.
 
RustyRef said:
That's going back to the old "if you were offside you were offside" law, that was decades ago. You have posted about the current laws, and I just cannot remember a player ever stepping off the pitch to try to influence an offside decision.
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I cannot even come up with a scenario where it would make sense for an attacker to do it with modern OS. There's simply no reason to. I think it just remains lurking in the laws because no one has taken it out.
 
socal lurker said:
I cannot even come up with a scenario where it would make sense for an attacker to do it with modern OS. There's simply no reason to. I think it just remains lurking in the laws because no one has taken it out.
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It hasn't just remained lurking. The previous wording (2008) was simpler, and without the concept in the laws that everyone here seems to think is nonsense that offside is not reset just by a new phase of play.

If a defending player steps behind his own goal line in order to place an opponent in an offside position, the referee shall allow play to continue and caution the defender for deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission when the ball is next out of play. *

It is not an offence in itself for a player who is in an offside position to step off the field of play to show the referee that he is not involved in active play. However, if the referee considers that he has left the field of play for tactical reasons and has gained an unfair advantage by reentering the field of play, the player shall be cautioned for unsporting behaviour. The player needs to ask for the referee’s permission to reenter the field of play.

If an attacking player remains stationary between the goal posts and inside the goal net as the ball enters the goal, a goal shall be awarded. However, if the attacking player distracts an opponent, the goal shall be disallowed, the player cautioned for unsporting behaviour and play shall be restarted with a dropped ball...

* What it doesn't say is whether the defender is thus out of the game for offside (NB the French for offside is "out of the game"). Nor that the defender is still "there" if outside the touchline.

Clearly someone at IFAB needed to clarify (there was a Van Nistelrooy goal in the 2008 Euros that caused some controversy about this) but has also introduced a bit of stupidity about how long the player off the pitch is still deemed to be off the pitch. It might be that person who answers the email asking why...
 
socal lurker said:
I cannot even come up with a scenario where it would make sense for an attacker to do it with modern OS. There's simply no reason to. I think it just remains lurking in the laws because no one has taken it out.
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I've had this happen to me as a striker where the defender has stepped off the pitch to play me offside, ref didn't know this law and so IDFK to defending team D:
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
I've had this happen to me as a striker where the defender has stepped off the pitch to play me offside, ref didn't know this law and so IDFK to defending team D:
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Um, no you didn’t. What I said was it made no sense in modern law for an ATTACKER to step off. the defender scenario is different.
 
It would only make sense for an attacker to do it under the very old law that if you were offside you were offside. So they would step off if they had no chance of getting back onside in order to avoid being flagged. There's absolutely no reason to do it now.
 
RustyRef said:
It would only make sense for an attacker to do it under the very old law that if you were offside you were offside.
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Sorry Rusty, but surely you didn't mean to say that?

Perhaps what you meant to say, was that there have been times when officials got into the bad habit of making incorrect offside decisions based on that mistaken notion? If so, then I would agree.

The thing is, there has never been a time when the law said it was an offence simply to be in an offside position - starting with the very first edition of the laws in 1863, which stated only that a player in an offside position “may not touch the ball himself, nor in any way whatever prevent any other player from doing so.”

Subsequently, and down the decades, the FA and the IFAB have issued periodic reminders about this issue. See examples of some such instances below.

In 1903 the FA Council issued the following statement: ''It is not a breach of Law for a player simply to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position, he causes the play to be affected.''

In 1910 the FA council stated: ''Some Referees award a free kick when a player is simply in an off-side position. This must not be done.''

The following wording was included in the Laws document in 1920: ''Play should not be stopped and a player given off-side [...] because the player is in an off-side position. A breach of the Law is only committed when a player who is in an offside position interferes with an opponent or with the play.''

In 1956, International Board Decision (IBD) 1 to Law XI was issued, stating that a player who was in an offside position should not be penalised if it was clear to the referee ''that he is not interfering with play.''

In 1978 the laws stated: ''A player shall not be declared off-side by the Referee [...] merely because of his being in an off-side position.''

And ever since 1997, the very first sentence of the Offside Law has been: ''It is not an offence [in itself] to be in an offside position.''

Sorry to go off on a bit of a screed about it but this is a persistent myth about the offside law that I feel compelled to challenge every time I see or hear it.
 
Peter Grove said:
Sorry Rusty, but surely you didn't mean to say that?

Perhaps what you meant to say, was that there have been times when officials got into the bad habit of making incorrect offside decisions based on that mistaken notion? If so, then I would agree.

The thing is, there has never been a time when the law said it was an offence simply to be in an offside position - starting with the very first edition of the laws in 1863, which stated only that a player in an offside position “may not touch the ball himself, nor in any way whatever prevent any other player from doing so.”

Subsequently, and down the decades, the FA and the IFAB have issued periodic reminders about this issue. See examples of some such instances below.

In 1903 the FA Council issued the following statement: ''It is not a breach of Law for a player simply to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position, he causes the play to be affected.''

In 1910 the FA council stated: ''Some Referees award a free kick when a player is simply in an off-side position. This must not be done.''

The following wording was included in the Laws document in 1920: ''Play should not be stopped and a player given off-side [...] because the player is in an off-side position. A breach of the Law is only committed when a player who is in an offside position interferes with an opponent or with the play.''

In 1956, International Board Decision (IBD) 1 to Law XI was issued, stating that a player who was in an offside position should not be penalised if it was clear to the referee ''that he is not interfering with play.''

In 1978 the laws stated: ''A player shall not be declared off-side by the Referee [...] merely because of his being in an off-side position.''

And ever since 1997, the very first sentence of the Offside Law has been: ''It is not an offence [in itself] to be in an offside position.''

Sorry to go off on a bit of a screed about it but this is a persistent myth about the offside law that I feel compelled to challenge every time I see or hear it.
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I only started refereeing in 1997, before that point I was merely a player and supporter, therefore I would have gone 100% by what I was told by pundits and commentators 😂

Why would I have any interest whatsoever in studying laws that only applied before I became a referee?
 
RustyRef said:
Why would I have any interest whatsoever in studying laws that only applied before I became a referee?
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Overall a fair point, and most of the reason to look at old laws is simply curiosity. (I started reffing in the 70's, so some of it for me is seeing if I remember correctly.) But sometimes understanding what the Laws were helps untangle what they are meant to be now, especially as IFAB doesn't always explain them clearly. The history sometimes provides useful context. I also find it useful when dealing with coaches who yell things--sometimes what they are yelling about is something that actually was true many years ago, which tells me it's someone who played once upon a time but hasn't really kept up with nuance..
 
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