Keepers at penalties

[Josh the referee]

Right need some clarification, under the current laws the Keeper isn't allowed to touch the crossbar/posts before the kick is taken, right?

If they do, is it a caution? And assume it would come under C1 but what FA Code?

 

[socal lurker]

Not quite. Law 14 requires the GK to remain on the line not touching the crossbar posts. That doesn't mean he can't touch them before the R has whistled for the kick to be taken. Why would you caution? It would be a Law 14 infraction if he were to jump up and grab the bar after the whistle was blown, which just means the kicker gets to retake a miss.

 

[Ref X]

Yo, Josh!

Law 14.1 states:

"The defending goalkeeper must remain on the goal line, facing the kicker, between the goalposts, without touching the goalposts, crossbar or goal net, until the ball has been kicked."

So not sure I agree with @socal lurker about this only applying after the CR has blown for the kick to be taken. That's not stated anywhere in the LOTG.

In reality, the GK touching the crossbar and/or posts doesn't matter unless it interferes with the kicker. One could argue that this is anytime after the penalty is called and before the kick is taken because it causes wasted time. But in general it will have a bigger impact closer to the time the penalty is taken.

That means the closer to the kick the GK is touching the post/crossbar (especially after being told not to) the more they should expect a caution.

To trying to avoid this from happening altogether; he's my usual procedure for a penalty:

1. Call for penalty
2. Get all field players out of the box
3. Have the kicker identify him/herself and tell them, "on my whistle."
4. Walk to the GK (who's usually off their line), walk them back to the goal line and tell them no leaving the line until the ball is kicked and no touching posts/crossbar
5. Walk back to my position next to penalty spot while checking AR is in the correct spot, all field players are outside of penalty box & arc.
6. Whistle for kick to be taken

If a GK touches the post/crossbar before step 4, I'm not worrying too much about it unless it's excessively distracting.

If it happens after step 4, they've been warned and a caution is appropriate.

But I could also see a strong warning being just as effective if, say, the GK does a quick jump and brushes the post. Kindof depends on how much control over the game you have and if a caution will help you regain that control.

Like a lot of things, this is a subjective call. Use your best judgement!

Law 14.2 states:

"If, before the ball is in play, the goalkeeper offends, if the ball misses the goal or rebounds from the crossbar or goalpost(s), the kick is only retaken if the goalkeeper’s offense clearly impacted on the kicker."

So the penalty kick would only be retaken if the GK touching the crossbar/posts clearly impacts the kicker.

This is likely as the run up is happening. The kick would not be retaken if the GK touches the crossbar/posts before the whistle.

Hope this helps

 

[Peter Grove]

The law also says that:

the goalposts, crossbar and goal net must not be moving.

So if the keeper had touched any of those items and caused them to move, you'd have to wait until they'd stopped moving before signalling for the kick to be taken.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Yo, Josh!

Law 14.1 states:



So not sure I agree with @socal lurker about this only applying after the CR has blown for the kick to be taken. That's not stated anywhere in the LOTG.

In reality, the GK touching the crossbar and/or posts doesn't matter unless it interferes with the kicker. One could argue that this is anytime after the penalty is called and before the kick is taken because it causes wasted time. But in general it will have a bigger impact closer to the time the penalty is taken.

That means the closer to the kick the GK is touching the post/crossbar (especially after being told not to) the more they should expect a caution.

To trying to avoid this from happening altogether; he's my usual procedure for a penalty:

1. Call for penalty
2. Get all field players out of the box
3. Have the kicker identify him/herself and tell them, "on my whistle."
4. Walk to the GK (who's usually off their line), walk them back to the goal line and tell them no leaving the line until the ball is kicked and no touching posts/crossbar
5. Walk back to my position next to penalty spot while checking AR is in the correct spot, all field players are outside of penalty box & arc.
6. Whistle for kick to be taken

If a GK touches the post/crossbar before step 4, I'm not worrying too much about it unless it's excessively distracting.

If it happens after step 4, they've been warned and a caution is appropriate.

But I could also see a strong warning being just as effective if, say, the GK does a quick jump and brushes the post. Kindof depends on how much control over the game you have and if a caution will help you regain that control.

Like a lot of things, this is a subjective call. Use your best judgement!

Law 14.2 states:



So the penalty kick would only be retaken if the GK touching the crossbar/posts clearly impacts the kicker.

This is likely as the run up is happening. The kick would not be retaken if the GK touches the crossbar/posts before the whistle.

Hope this helps

Telling a goalkeeper not to touch the goalpost while facing a penalty must surely confuse them - no-one ever does it!

 

[Ref X]

So if the keeper had touched any of those items and caused them to move, you'd have to wait until they'd stopped moving before signalling for the kick to be taken.

@Peter Grove Correct! The LOTG state the frame of the goal must be still when a penalty kick is taken.

Telling a goalkeeper not to touch the goalpost while facing a penalty must surely confuse them - no-one ever does it!

@ChasObserverRefDeveloper This is a good point! Since a penalty is such a big KMI, I like to make sure everybody involved has the right information and opportunity to perform their best. Probably with younger ages I can leave the part about the crossbar/post out. At a higher level it might be more important and GKs are probably more locked in and less likely to be confused. But you're right, still might not be necessary at that point.

Thanks for the comment though! Going to adjust my process based on age & skill level of the game

 

[socal lurker]

So not sure I agree with @socal lurker about this only applying after the CR has blown for the kick to be taken. That's not stated anywhere in the LOTG.

it’s in the same provision for standing on the line and facing the kicker, so it has the same time constraints. You surely don’t make the GK stand on the line facing the kicker as soon as you call the foul? (Hmm, that could solve some problems. . . )

I hardly see this as something to talk to GKs about. I’ve never seen this become a real world issue in any game I have reffed, played, coached, or watched. The only reason to raise it is if something actually happens (extremely unlikely) or if the ref wants to show he’s smart And knows something no one else knows and hasn’t even thought about.

 

[Ref X]

I hardly see this as something to talk to GKs about. I’ve never seen this become a real world issue in any game I have reffed, played, coached, or watched. The only reason to raise it is if something actually happens (extremely unlikely) or if the ref wants to show he’s smart And knows something no one else knows and hasn’t even thought about.

I'm with you! Probably something I can take out of my pre-kick reminder to the GK.

it’s in the same provision for standing on the line and facing the kicker, so it has the same time constraints. You surely don’t make the GK stand on the line facing the kicker as soon as you call the foul? (Hmm, that could solve some problems. . . )

I can think of 3 unique situations of a GK touching the crossbar/post before a kick.

1. GK knocking dirt off cleats by banging on posts, pushing against post to stretch, etc. Probably not a big deal but might elicit a warning.
2. GK jumping and touching crossbar right before the whistle is blown for the kick. Tactic used to distract, intimidate. Again, could be a warning but possible caution if they've already been warned.
3. GK jumping to touch crossbar as kick's taken. Never seen it happen but could cause a re-kick if missed.

Sounds like you're interpreting the law as no touching the crossbar/posts after the whistle is blown? If that's right, it makes sense! I've just been thinking about it during the entire penalty process.

Follow up scenario: what about during penalty kicks? Every kick the GK is coming in to defend, they takes 15 seconds to kick their cleats against the post to waste time. How do you handle this? Warning then caution?

 

[Josh the referee]

Is it a caution? Still slightly confused

And what does it come under in the FA Codes?

 

[Tom_R]

Is it a caution? Still slightly confused

And what does it come under in the FA Codes?

Majority of the time no caution and just a warning. The goalkeeper won't bang the bar as the kick is being taken because it would affect their ability to make a save (arms are all over the place). I let the keeper bang the bar for the last time, wait for the bar to stop moving and then whistle. And code would be something under C1.

 

[socal lurker]

I'm with you! Probably something I can take out of my pre-kick reminder to the GK.



I can think of 3 unique situations of a GK touching the crossbar/post before a kick.

1. GK knocking dirt off cleats by banging on posts, pushing against post to stretch, etc. Probably not a big deal but might elicit a warning.
2. GK jumping and touching crossbar right before the whistle is blown for the kick. Tactic used to distract, intimidate. Again, could be a warning but possible caution if they've already been warned.
3. GK jumping to touch crossbar as kick's taken. Never seen it happen but could cause a re-kick if missed.

Sounds like you're interpreting the law as no touching the crossbar/posts after the whistle is blown? If that's right, it makes sense! I've just been thinking about it during the entire penalty process.

Follow up scenario: what about during penalty kicks? Every kick the GK is coming in to defend, they takes 15 seconds to kick their cleats against the post to waste time. How do you handle this? Warning then caution?

I don’t agree with you on much of the above. 1 is a big nothing. That’s not what this is about. If it’s a delay tactic, that’s something different. (There could be a reason you’ve never seen a referee sanction or even care about a GK doing this.)

2 intimidating the kicker? Any kicker intimidated by the fact the GK can reach the cross bar was going to miss the kick anyway.

and 3 is about the dumbest thing a GK could do on a PK, as it just takes him out of position to stop the kick. There is a reason you’ve never seen it.

I’m not going to spend any more time responding on these things that really don’t happen. These are not things to look for. These are things to not think about at all unless they jump up, grab you, and shake you. Unless the GK jumps up, grabs the crossbar and makes it move, I have a million bigger fish to fry on a PK.

 

[Ref X]

@socal lurker Thanks for the good convo!

I do enjoy extrapolating and considering different outcomes (there's a first time for everything) but you're mostly right here.

 

[Peter Grove]

Telling a goalkeeper not to touch the goalpost while facing a penalty must surely confuse them - no-one ever does it!

True, but many, many of them jump up and touch the crossbar (and/or pull down on it) causing it to oscillate.

I always keep an eye on this and I have seen a number of occasions when the bar looked to be still moving slightly (though only just) when the referee gave the signal for the kick to be taken.

Although I'd have to admit that it wasn't still moving by the time of the actual kick, it surprised me that referees involved didn't wait for the bar to be completely immobile before signalling for the kick to be taken.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

True, but many, many of them jump up and touch the crossbar (and/or pull down on it) causing it to oscillate.

I always keep an eye on this and I have seen a number of occasions when the bar looked to be still moving slightly (though only just) when the referee gave the signal for the kick to be taken.

Although I'd have to admit that it wasn't still moving by the time of the actual kick, it surprised me that referees involved didn't wait for the bar to be completely immobile before signalling for the kick to be taken.

Indeed, Peter - I just found it odd that a referee would tell a goalkeeper not to touch the goalpost at the taking of a penalty

 

[Ref X]

True, but many, many of them jump up and touch the crossbar (and/or pull down on it) causing it to oscillate.

I always keep an eye on this and I have seen a number of occasions when the bar looked to be still moving slightly (though only just) when the referee gave the signal for the kick to be taken.

Although I'd have to admit that it wasn't still moving by the time of the actual kick, it surprised me that referees involved didn't wait for the bar to be completely immobile before signalling for the kick to be taken.

Thanks for posting, @Peter Grove! Good to know this does happen and is something to keep an eye out for.