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Extremely Late 'Challenge'

Discussion in 'As Seen on TV' started by boulderdomb, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. boulderdomb

    boulderdomb Member Level 7 Referee

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  4. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member Level 4 Referee

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    Yellow card correct for me. Consider the definitions of careless, reckless, excessive force and then apply it to the challenge.

    Its a cynical foul designed to stop a promising attack. Yes there's no attempt for the ball but he does not endanger his opponents safety.
     
  5. Sheffields Finest

    Sheffields Finest Happily minding that Gap

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    YC, no more than that for that challenge!! Cynical trip but not overly dangerous!!
     
  6. RustyRef

    RustyRef Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a red for me, he isn't making any attempt whatsoever to play the ball, and therefore any force is excessive.
     
  7. HarryD

    HarryD Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    Easy sell for red, that's so late it's borderline VC
     
  8. Sheffields Finest

    Sheffields Finest Happily minding that Gap

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    Reckless for sure but ‘excessive force’ is so loose a term that it’s laughable. It’s one of those terms that fall into ITOOTR.
     
  9. WilliamD

    WilliamD Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    First read was yellow. Sort of text book cynical and frankly think he took some care to loop his leg around and not just go studs in.

    There is an argument along the lines of what @RustyRef and @HarryD are saying about it being SO late it almost something else so if it was Red you could sell it but my view is still Yellow.
     
  10. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member Level 4 Referee

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    For me its where do you draw the line for lateness as to when it becomes "excessive force". Even still another example is when a player pushes another player and the ball is not even in play. You could argue that was "excessive force" applying the same principle as ...
    Aa far as I know the lateness or intent of a challenge are not considerations when determining an appropriate sanction for a foul tackle. Does the OP foul endanger safety I dont think it does.

    Does the player act with disregard to the danger or consequences for his opponent - for me, that is an almost perfect descriptor of this type of tackle which makes it a caution in my book.

    I just couldnt see myself justifying this as a red card and I would expect a very tough game onwards if this was the bar that was being set for SFP or VC.
     
  11. HarryD

    HarryD Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    Easily sellable IMO. 'He has gone to completely wipe him out ages after the balls gone, it's a shocker'.

    What you don't punish, you encourage. Would I want them flying in for the rest of the game? No chance
     
  12. Sheffields Finest

    Sheffields Finest Happily minding that Gap

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    But he has punished him correctly with the YC!! You've possibly gone OTT in RC and raised the temperature of the game when you didn't have to!!! Two sides of the coin and all that!!
     
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  13. HarryD

    HarryD Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    In fairness I see both sides to it. It's probably about as orange as it gets. In theory, I stand by my response. In practice, it depends on the temperature of the game and the reaction of the players. He's getting a card no doubt about it. The rest depends on the 'on the day' circumstances
     
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  14. RustyRef

    RustyRef Moderator Staff Member

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    The FA / PGMOL have told referees to sanction such challenges as red cards, although this game was obviously in Scotland. Examples have included Rooney and Xhaka, plus a couple of others that I can't remember the details of.

    If you caution here for a reckless challenge you are, in effect, saying that it was an attempt to win the ball. It was nothing of the sort, the ball is nowhere near and it can only be an attempt to kick the opponent. Granted it wasn't an especially forceful kick, but it was still intentionally kicking an opponent when the ball was not playable.
     
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  15. Sheffields Finest

    Sheffields Finest Happily minding that Gap

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    That’s OTT RR, there are mis timed kicks and cynical fouls all over the pitch that you could use that argument for. It’s a cynical foul, that’s it, yes, it’s a bit naughty and orange at very best. Red, nah, needs to do a bit more than that for me to be walking!
     
  16. GraemeS

    GraemeS Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    I struggle to see how you could claim excessive force or endangering the players safety there. It's a trip only (a kick would be a different matter) and definitely deserving of a yellow, and it's so incredibly cynical that I do understand why it could "feel" like a red, but I can't justify red based on the LOTG, so yellow it is for me.
     
  17. HarryD

    HarryD Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    If you have a look and pause it, the defender also trips him really high at speed. The leg he makes contact with is well above the knee. VERY soft SFP but there's an argument all the same.
     
  18. Ciley Myrus

    Ciley Myrus Well-Known Member

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    Pause it on 4 mins 38. Which is the time of the contact. Ball is, 8 yards away? Thus its not a tackle so cant be SFP
    Its VC, all day long..
     
  19. GraemeS

    GraemeS Well-Known Member Level 5 Referee

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    VC = Violent conduct correct? I don't personally see any real violence here! It's a trip to stop a promising attack, I don't see how proximity to the ball makes it any more or less violent?
     
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  20. boulderdomb

    boulderdomb Member Level 7 Referee

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    For me the player didn't even challenge for the ball and on a Saturday in Glasgow Green I'd be handing out the RC for this although that is why I posted here as the referee gave a yellow (and a lot of you here would also give the yellow). I just struggle to see how it can be considered a challenge for the ball.
     
  21. Tino Best

    Tino Best Well-Known Member Level 7 Referee

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    Its that it is almost in next weeks game. Has to be a red. If it was a late tackle yellow deffo but it is too late for any attempt to play the ball.
     
  22. alexgr

    alexgr Active Member Level 7 Referee

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    This reminds me of the sending off v Aston Villa from a few weeks ago. That was rescinded but I still maintain the argument that this endangers the player's safety - there is no intention to play the ball, given the momentum I think it's a very, very easy sell here.
     

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