A&H

Did this today

For those who are saying they will do it their own way (interestingly a lot of you are grade 7s) -

If you are interested in promotion, you are being assessed and this happens in your game where a mandatory caution is expect. What do you do? Caution or no? Honest answer please.

Second question; you are at a game and a defender commits a clear cut Dogso trip on an attacker. Last weeks ref did not send off in a Similar situation due to a lame excuse (pick any of those given in the posts above :p ) - "last weeks ref didn't send him off ref! Just cautioned him!" Blah blah blah your the worst ref in the world blah blah blah. This is the same thing as what you are suggesting by ignoring mandatory cautions.

Third and final point; in a competitive league, cautions and sending s off can mean relegation and promotion/winning the league for teams, once in a playing career experience maybe for some of them. Saturday or Sunday amateurs play for the glory of wining their league or not getting relegated with no regard for financial considerations. All about the on pitch glory and bragging rights. By deciding to ignore the LOTG and not applying mandatory cautions uou are letting players who should otherwise be suspended through accumulation of cautions etc play. you are potentially cheating other teams in the league. This is highlighted when your refereeing colleagues do their job properly. You do not.

And I don't buy this "it's only grass roots" as an excuse crap. If you are too good to referee their games properly, stop refereeing them and do higher leagues and divisions where you would be too scared to be last weeks ref.
 
The Referee Store
:rolleyes:

So are these diy referees misguided, arrogant, weak or cheats, pure and simple

They clearly think that they're none of the above but I beg to differ
 
I have genuinely, in all of my playing and refereeing days, never seen a goalkeeper do this so I am struggling to understand what his being done to the pitch, or why.

But, for the record, if I see it and it's obvious to me what is being done (which as above I am not sure I understand) I would apply the LOTG and caution for it.
 
SM, all perfectly valid points. I see what you are saying. CLEARLY we disagree on this. For what it is worth, I do not think myself to be 'too good' for grassroots level, I've never once said that. You know what, if it was being assessed and going for promotion, maybe I would have a different perspective. But I'm not, I've refereed less than 20 games in total. I am not about to go banging cautions out for something that I think can be dealt with with a warning in a league where we have had a referee seriously assaulted this season. I am just not going to do it.

I'm not sure if you are you suggesting that I am a cheat @haywain ? Misguided, maybe. Arrogant, I would say no. Weak, again I would say no. Inexperienced, yes. Cheat, absolutely not. If you are suggesting that I am a cheat then quite frankly I think you know where you can stick that.

Clearly there are differing opinions here, and thats fine. Either way I am done with this thread as I don't have anything more to say.
 
I simply laid out some parameters, heedmatt

If, however, by your actions you cheat a player of his once in a playing career experience, to use sm's 'perfectly valid point' (your words) then don't be surprised if some people question your integrity
 
HullRef said:
On a side note, I though you gave up being an active referee at the end of last season??
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I have said it twice no @HullRef but it's difficult to stop. I'm resorting to throwing away all my kits at the end of this season.

18ocram said:
Did you book him before the game started?
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Yes. For only the second time in 15 seasons, I cautioned a player before kick off.

heedmatt said:
SM, all perfectly valid points. I see what you are saying. CLEARLY we disagree on this. For what it is worth, I do not think myself to be 'too good' for grassroots level, I've never once said that. You know what, if it was being assessed and going for promotion, maybe I would have a different perspective. But I'm not, I've refereed less than 20 games in total. I am not about to go banging cautions out for something that I think can be dealt with with a warning in a league where we have had a referee seriously assaulted this season. I am just not going to do it.

I'm not sure if you are you suggesting that I am a cheat @haywain ? Misguided, maybe. Arrogant, I would say no. Weak, again I would say no. Inexperienced, yes. Cheat, absolutely not. If you are suggesting that I am a cheat then quite frankly I think you know where you can stick that.

Clearly there are differing opinions here, and thats fine. Either way I am done with this thread as I don't have anything more to say.
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matt, you will find as you progress in your career that you reach a point where failing to issue a mandatory caution will see you lose marks and possibly a promotion or honours appointment.

CallumRushton13 said:
Why so strict?? Yes it should be a caution, but no one expects it, no one wants it, and all that will happen (imo) is the players will walk around thinking "what a jobs worth" and the likelihood of be building a rapport with them is around 0
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Quite the opposite, it took the edge off the pre-match tension between 2 teams with poor disciplinary records.

Gary Milton said:
I can 100% agree that the game does need consistantcy and can understand that by me not giving a mandatory yellow every time doesn't provide this, and accept my failings as a refereeat junior/youth level.

I will refer this topic back to the age old debate of officiating games at a younger age groups. at U9's, 10's etc etc can you honestly say you have given the mandatory yellow everytime? is there not one single occasion when you haven't given one in your entire career as a referee? i am certain there will be one occasion when you have responded leniently with the LOTG, and if you haven't i owuld genuinly be interested in watching some of you games for some learning points.

For me, the answer for consistency is simpleand it lays with the leagues. They need to get the referee's together before the season and prep them of the expectations, be it referee to the letter of the law, and filter this to the players and manage expectations at little better perhaps. Then there is no excuse for being last weeks ref.

For me, alot of refereeing is about managing the game, about ensuring the consistancy is with the heat of the game, i.e slowing the game down when the heat rises etc... this is all part of game management, and for me not issueing a caution in the 85th minute for something and nothing is simular.

I am still learning, and its great to hear the feebdback from everyone! all very interesting POV.
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Gary, this is done every season with all promotion candidates and also throughout the season at Referees Association meetings. Unfortunately there are a large number of referees out there who attend neither. It is these referees who often make life harder for the rest of us.

PinnerPaul said:
I think there is a subtle difference between ignoring it and warning about imminent punishment.

That was MY point - we issue verbal warnings all the time - so why not in this instance?
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Paul I already said higher up the thread I will warn players where they might commit an offence involving another player but not his offence on this occasion. He marked the field, making a mark I couldn't get rid of. It's a mandatory caution. No surprises.
 
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The word "must" makes this a mandatory caution.
heedmatt said:
I get the caution. I can totally understand why people choose to caution for this and why Brian has cautioned for this. But the idea that we are there to follow the LOTG rigorously and 100% by the book is garbage, particularly at grassroots level.

Seriously, how many times do people let 'trivial' things that are in the LOTG go at grassroots level or even above? Undershorts the same colour as shorts? Sock tape being a different colour to socks? Pitch dimensions? Lines on the pitch? Six seconds IDFK rule for a keeper handling in possession? Atmospheric pressure of the ball? OFFINABUS even? The amount of times we hear clear OFFINABUS in a game at all sorts of levels but the referee does nothing.

And I don't buy this 'you are doing it to keep players happy' or 'you are doing it to be popular'. It's got nothing to do with keeping players happy. Believe me, I could not care if I walk off that field and everyone thinks i'm the biggest so-and-so in the world. It has happened before and it will happen again, it is part of the job. Yes there are some referees who would rather keep people happy, but then again I think that the application of a mandatory caution such as this still needs a degree of common sense, particularly at grassroots.

You simply cannot go out on a Sunday and enforce the LOTG by the book as nine times out of ten you wouldn't get the game started. And if anyone on here says they have never made a decision based on their own 'interpretation' of the laws accompanied by a healthy dose of law 18, or have never chosen to overlook a 'trivial' law in favour of match control then you are talking nonsense.
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I'm all for law 18 (and have used law 18 lots) but under no circumstances (and this could be down to my likely attempt at promotion this time round) will I ignore a mandatory caution. There are somethings that are mandatory for a reason (whatever that reason may be) and need to be enforced. Sometimes Law 18, in my opinion, can be either overused or used to justify a referees lack of action on a decision.
 
Josh said:
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Why no?? I've been told enough times by enough high level referees/coaches etc that refereeing to expectations is a good thing... By that I don't mean that I ignore ofinabus or dissent, or that I back out of big decisions. What I do mean is that certain games require a different approach... In 99% of games a caution for this, imo, is not needed... Likewise in a free flowing game I am more lenient with 'niggly' fouls than I am in a heated derby following a red card for violent conduct.
 
CallumRushton13 said:
Why no?? I've been told enough times by enough high level referees/coaches etc that refereeing to expectations is a good thing... By that I don't mean that I ignore ofinabus or dissent, or that I back out of big decisions. What I do mean is that certain games require a different approach... In 99% of games a caution for this, imo, is not needed... Likewise in a free flowing game I am more lenient with 'niggly' fouls than I am in a heated derby following a red card for violent conduct.
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It all depends on how the phrase is used. If you mean it as in "im going to ignore that mandatory caution because nobody wants it" then in my opinion that's a bad idea. However if you mean it as in "Nobody wanted a free kick there so i will let the game flow" then that can work for you.
 
CallumRushton13 said:
Why no?? I've been told enough times by enough high level referees/coaches etc that refereeing to expectations is a good thing... By that I don't mean that I ignore ofinabus or dissent, or that I back out of big decisions. What I do mean is that certain games require a different approach... In 99% of games a caution for this, imo, is not needed... Likewise in a free flowing game I am more lenient with 'niggly' fouls than I am in a heated derby following a red card for violent conduct.
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Callum, they say that about their games which are televised, stewarded and a world apart from your games. That isn't meant disrespectfully to you but I'm trying to emphasise that it really is a different game at their level. Also, while they say that now, were they actually refereeing like that when they were at your level or have they been moulded to suit the game at the level at which they now operate?

CallumRushton13 said:
Given the context of your game I'll let you off on your strictness brian ;) fully understand why you did it and would've done the same...
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You're very kind ;)
 
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Brian Hamilton said:
Callum, they say that about their games which are televised, stewarded and a world apart from your games. That isn't meant disrespectfully to you but I'm trying to emphasise that it really is a different game at their level. Also, while they say that now, were they actually refereeing like that when they were at your level or have they been moulded to suit the game at the level at which they now operate?
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I get that but surely at lower levels there is even greater call for common sense when it comes to situations like this...
 
The problem with the common sense argument is that applying common sense here is surely breaking the law entirely, rather than bending it?
 
None of us on here WANT to caution the GK for doing this - especially if it's the first public act of the game - but - we all know we probably should

It's the same with dissent - I don't WANT my first caution of the game to be for dissent - but - if I need to then I will ... I would much prefer it to be for a nailed on reckless tackle that everyone expects to be cautioned ...
 
As Alex says, I was once told it always better for your first caution to be for a physical offence likes a reckless challenge rather than a technical offence. Technical cautions go either two ways for players, they know the law and are quite happy to circumnavigate it if they can or don't know such a law exists and don't understand the caution. The normal one for that for me is entering the FOP without permission.

However regardless of the time of the offence if it is a mandatory caution it remains as such.
 
SM said:
If you are interested in promotion, you are being assessed and this happens in your game where a mandatory caution is expect. What do you do? Caution or no? Honest answer please.
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I am going to be a hypocrite now and say honestly of course if i was going for promotion then yes, being assessed I would have to stick completely to the LOTG by the letter or one would be marked accordingly, and rightly so. I wouold like to also point out though that you only get assessed on open age games... and the reason for that? (perhaps something to do with the fact youth/junior football is referees differently) - You only have to look at the stats for junior/youth football and see how many cautions/reds have been issued to see the comparison... far fewer than the "average" in higher levels... is this because lower leagues commit less fouols... I very much doubt it. Is that the root of the issue... yes..

Now I have answered honestly... can everyone else, hand on heart say they have NEVER interpreted something deliberately to "justify" not handing out a yellow/red? and can hand on heart say they apply every letter of the law to every game and every scenario? Especially anyone who has refereed below say U14's.

Brian Hamilton said:
Gary, this is done every season with all promotion candidates and also throughout the season at Referees Association meetings. Unfortunately there are a large number of referees out there who attend neither. It is these referees who often make life harder for the rest of us.
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Brian: You have hit the nail on the head there then...this is done with all promotion candidates... if we are to get consistancy, then this should be done with every referee in every league.

haywain said:
So are these diy referees misguided, arrogant, weak or cheats, pure and simple

They clearly think that they're none of the above but I beg to differ
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Haywain, lets be honest this isn't helpful, calling groups of new, inexperienced referee's cheats. We are all on here to learn, to be guided, and become better referee's.

SM said:
And I don't buy this "it's only grass roots" as an excuse crap. If you are too good to referee their games properly, stop refereeing them and do higher leagues and divisions where you would be too scared to be last weeks ref.
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Again, not overly helpful, basically calling us arrogant for being too good for grass roots. I have done a wide range of matches at varying levels (Albeit my level 7 newbie status allows) and have worked with numerous level 3's who have used large doses of law 18, and interpreted things specifically not to give a yellow... so its not just level 7's that do this. were they correct by law to do it... no.... is it helpful for my development to see this... again... no, but the reality is it happens.
Will i give cautions, sending off... yes I certainly will, have done and will continue to do so... my only point is that on some occasions, a word, a stern telling off or what not can also be very helpful... specifically at the younger age groups.

For me, the system is flawed, there isn't enough support, everyone's expectations are completely different.
At the end of the day, no one is perfect, every match is a learning curve and everyone on here makes mistakes. Lets be honest..., how many premier league referee's are on this forum? we can all learn something!

Will i think about the comments made by everyone, you bet I will, I will take on board everything constructuve that is said, and use it to better develop my game!

Ooo this is all fun! :D
 
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