A&H

criticising referees

K

Kent Ref

RefChat Addict
I wrote a post about an EFL game that was removed as i used the term "borderline cheating".

I was wrong to use this term and i struggled to find the right words to explain what i was thinking.

But i want to understand what is the right word / description to use when a referee fails to carry out their duties correctly? Especially when so much money is being paid to them for the job. Out of interest is the fee around £800 in league one and two now?

In reality is it incompetence? Is it lack of bottle? Is it pressure from the hierarchy to keep 11 v 11?

Why do referees at the highest level fail to send off players like they did on Saturday?

Just so others understand (who may not have seen my original post) a player from the away team:

Kicked the ball awa.
Showed clear verbal dissent after a penalty was not awarded (wrongly IMHO).
Remonstrated with the ref at half time in the centre circle about the "no penalty" decision.
Committed 4 later fouls.
Pushed a player to the ground and was then warned.
He was subbed seconds later.

The player was shown a yellow card for the dissent incident. (incident 2). I think he committed at least 5 yellow cards worth (DRP, dissent, dissent, PI and AAA)

I assume the match-day observer would have said something in the post-match de-brief.
 
The Referee Store
The 'fans' forums categorise it as either cheating or incompetence...there are of course genuine mistakes in there too as well as things like subconscious bias
 
For better or worse, there is a sense out there that better refs find a way to manage the game and not need to send off players. That puts pressure on refs to not send players off and to manage where they should show cards. (And, of course, this leads to players pushing the envelope, as they know refs are reluctant tomgive those cards.) there is a sense that a game tht is ‘t 11v 11 is less entertaining, and soccer at the professional level is an entertainment business—a very big busines.

The problem with the word “cheat” is that it isn’t related to what is taking place. “Cheat” implies deliberately favoring a particular team.
 
Kent Ref said:
I wrote a post about an EFL game that was removed as i used the term "borderline cheating".

I was wrong to use this term and i struggled to find the right words to explain what i was thinking.

But i want to understand what is the right word / description to use when a referee fails to carry out their duties correctly? Especially when so much money is being paid to them for the job. Out of interest is the fee around £800 in league one and two now?

In reality is it incompetence? Is it lack of bottle? Is it pressure from the hierarchy to keep 11 v 11?

Why do referees at the highest level fail to send off players like they did on Saturday?

Just so others understand (who may not have seen my original post) a player from the away team:

Kicked the ball awa.
Showed clear verbal dissent after a penalty was not awarded (wrongly IMHO).
Remonstrated with the ref at half time in the centre circle about the "no penalty" decision.
Committed 4 later fouls.
Pushed a player to the ground and was then warned.
He was subbed seconds later.

The player was shown a yellow card for the dissent incident. (incident 2). I think he committed at least 5 yellow cards worth (DRP, dissent, dissent, PI and AAA)

I assume the match-day observer would have said something in the post-match de-brief.
Click to expand...
The match day observer would, I suspect, recognise the fact that there is a lot more to refereeing at that level than just knowing the laws. The phrase "managing an event" is used a lot, and that is exactly what they are doing. I only made it to L3, but I've been on games in front of thousands of spectators and it is totally different to lower levels. In one game my coach, a former top level referee, criticised me after for giving out too many cautions, this being done in front of the observer who completely agreed with him.

I've also seen several referees get to L4 and L3 and fail to adjust their game, and they never last very long. At those levels participants, and I include spectators in that, want referees to manage the game, they don't want the referees being centre of attention.

You might not like it, but I'd suggest you just focus on your own games because EFL, EPL, National League, etc, referees won't be throwing cards around like confetti.
 
RustyRef said:
The match day observer would, I suspect, recognise the fact that there is a lot more to refereeing at that level than just knowing the laws. The phrase "managing an event" is used a lot, and that is exactly what they are doing. I only made it to L3, but I've been on games in front of thousands of spectators and it is totally different to lower levels. In one game my coach, a former top level referee, criticised me after for giving out too many cautions, this being done in front of the observer who completely agreed with him.

I've also seen several referees get to L4 and L3 and fail to adjust their game, and they never last very long. At those levels participants, and I include spectators in that, want referees to manage the game, they don't want the referees being centre of attention.

You might not like it, but I'd suggest you just focus on your own games because EFL, EPL, National League, etc, referees won't be throwing cards around like confetti.
Click to expand...
After i read on the EFL website that referees have been instructed to crackdown on behaviour i am somewhat confused by your reply:

www.efl.com

Match Officials adopt new approach for 2023/24 season

Match Officials in the EFL will adopt a new approach to time keeping in the 2023/24 campaign.
www.efl.com www.efl.com

I am struggling to see the line between adhering to the LOTG/crackdown stated above and "managing an event". Which are the referees supposed to be doing? Why would the EFL make this statement if it was not true?

Out of interest - assuming i have stated the player's offences rightly - should that player of had at least 2 yellows?
 
Kent Ref said:
After i read on the EFL website that referees have been instructed to crackdown on behaviour i am somewhat confused by your reply:

www.efl.com

Match Officials adopt new approach for 2023/24 season

Match Officials in the EFL will adopt a new approach to time keeping in the 2023/24 campaign.
www.efl.com www.efl.com

I am struggling to see the line between adhering to the LOTG/crackdown stated above and "managing an event". Which are the referees supposed to be doing? Why would the EFL make this statement if it was not true?

Out of interest - assuming i have stated the player's offences rightly - should that player of had at least 2 yellows?
Click to expand...
They have been told to crack down on certain behaviour yes, and it is obvious that they are doing so as the number of cautions and red cards so far this season is up massively on the same point in previous seasons, especially for dissent and delaying the restart. But equally they don't want the officials to take it too far, if we ended up with loads of red cards and even abandoned games the clubs would demand that the referees are reigned back in.

Of course in your opinion things were missed, but with all due respect you are not an EFL observer and therefore aren't technically qualified to make such decisions, only the observer, the officials and PGMOL will know what he thought of the performance. I'm also guessing that you have some affiliation with the home team, and if it is the game I think it is they were comprehensively, and unexpectedly, beaten and had a man sent off themselves in the process.
 
The EFL statement at the bottom reads:

Participant behaviour

Similarly to delaying the restart, match officials will be empowered by the game to take a more robust approach to dealing with participant behaviour when it falls below expected standards on-field and in the technical area.

I took that as a clampdown on poor behaviour by players and non-players. Maybe you have "inside knowledge" as you were a level 3?

I may not have reached the dizzy heights of the EFL or Premier League but after nearly 30 years of reffing i have a good idea of what constitutes a yellow card offence. That makes me qualified to know what is being ignored or "managed" as you say.

You always seem to be an apologist for our senior colleagues who always appear to know better than us refs who operate locally.
 
Kent Ref said:
The EFL statement at the bottom reads:

Participant behaviour

Similarly to delaying the restart, match officials will be empowered by the game to take a more robust approach to dealing with participant behaviour when it falls below expected standards on-field and in the technical area.

I took that as a clampdown on poor behaviour by players and non-players. Maybe you have "inside knowledge" as you were a level 3?

I may not have reached the dizzy heights of the EFL or Premier League but after nearly 30 years of reffing i have a good idea of what constitutes a yellow card offence. That makes me qualified to know what is being ignored or "managed" as you say.

You always seem to be an apologist for our senior colleagues who always appear to know better than us refs who operate locally.
Click to expand...

Or alternatively I am a realist rather than an apologist.

As I said, cautions and red cards are up massively on the same points in previous seasons, as is the amount of added time, so to suggest there hasn't been a clampdown is clearly nonsensical. Perhaps, just perhaps, what you thought you saw didn't actually happen.
 
RustyRef said:
Or alternatively I am a realist rather than an apologist.

As I said, cautions and red cards are up massively on the same points in previous seasons, as is the amount of added time, so to suggest there hasn't been a clampdown is clearly nonsensical. Perhaps, just perhaps, what you thought you saw didn't actually happen.
Click to expand...
I imagined it - afraid not Rusty. Luckily i am able to watch the whole match again online after the match so i know what i saw was correct.

I don't doubt there has been a clampdown on delaying the restart as i have seen it n action but i am talking about the paragraph I highlighted above with regard to players.

I do not refer to managers as it's clear they have been yellow carded much more than before and they are being dealt with according to the new diktat.

It's the desire for 11 v 11 at all costs. You call it "managing a game" where the majority of refs might call it differently.

I wish you were able to be less patronising when you reply to your fellow referees. Maybe it's just the way you speak to others. It's not a good look.:stop::stop::stop:
 
Kent Ref said:
I imagined it - afraid not Rusty. Luckily i am able to watch the whole match again online after the match so i know what i saw was correct.

I don't doubt there has been a clampdown on delaying the restart as i have seen it n action but i am talking about the paragraph I highlighted above with regard to players.

I do not refer to managers as it's clear they have been yellow carded much more than before and they are being dealt with according to the new diktat.

It's the desire for 11 v 11 at all costs. You call it "managing a game" where the majority of refs might call it differently.

I wish you were able to be less patronising when you reply to your fellow referees. Maybe it's just the way you speak to others. It's not a good look.:stop::stop::stop:
Click to expand...
Refer to the pinned post. There are a multitude of fan forums, if you want to criticise referees they are the place to go. We can discuss things on here, but let's not forget that in your original post, which I deleted, you accused the referee of cheating, you used that exact word, you've not used it on this revised post but it still comes across as fan nonsense.

If you get your facts straight, there have been far more cards for players so far this season, both in the EPL and EFL, not just to managers and coaches. But don't let facts get in the way of a refereeing complaint.

Please also remember what we have a difficult job moderating this forum. You might not always agree with the way we, or perhaps just me, deal with things, but that is just life I'm afraid. But in signing up you agree to the forum rules, one of which is "Moderator's say is FINAL".
 
Last edited:
Kent Ref said:
But i want to understand what is the right word / description to use when a referee fails to carry out their duties correctly?
Click to expand...
It will depend but mistake is probably the best word, even then it’s a high bar because so much of refereeing is subjective.

We all saw the Penso thread showed we aren’t afraid to critique even our most illustrious colleagues.

As for tone, it’s social media so it’s hard to read it right. I do find some officials I’ve seen as a player (before and after I started refereeing too) go for a bit of a teacher-y tone that comes across smug and makes you super unlikeble. But honestly, you’re never going to be liked, found match control easier when I decided not to care what people thought about me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top