A&H

S7 on WGS

GraemeS

GraemeS

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Level 5 Referee
So I was submitting a double-yellow sending off yesterday and was slightly surprised to find that WGS only give you the option of selecting the two caution codes from drop down menus (and FA code if C1) and then that's it. No section to write a written report or anything.

This particularly struck me as I the second caution was for kicking the ball away, wheras when I select C2 that obviously includes dissent by word and action which is a little too general for my liking. The team in question did not accept the decision happily at the time (claiming I didn't give the player time to react) and I'm concerned that if they do appeal the decision and I have to answer any further questions, I may well have forgotten some of the details that I would normally have put down in writing when submitting a written report.

Did I miss a section where I could add additional information? Or am I worrying about nothing?
 
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GraemeS said:
So I was submitting a double-yellow sending off yesterday and was slightly surprised to find that WGS only give you the option of selecting the two caution codes from drop down menus (and FA code if C1) and then that's it. No section to write a written report or anything.

This particularly struck me as I the second caution was for kicking the ball away, wheras when I select C2 that obviously includes dissent by word and action which is a little too general for my liking. The team in question did not accept the decision happily at the time (claiming I didn't give the player time to react) and I'm concerned that if they do appeal the decision and I have to answer any further questions, I may well have forgotten some of the details that I would normally have put down in writing when submitting a written report.

Did I miss a section where I could add additional information? Or am I worrying about nothing?
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I am fairly certain you can not appeal reds for S7. You cant appeal yellows so presume it the same for two of them.

As for the additional info on WGS, no there is nowhere to write anything extra. The reason for this being that you dont need to for a single yellow so no reason to need to for a second yellow
 
That's correct, all they need for S7 is the code for each individual caution. You don't need to write anything for it.
 
Fair enough - if there's no chance of an appeal, I guess I'm not going to get too worked up about recalling the details in the same way I would for any other dismissal. Still seems a little odd that there isn't even the option to add more detail (at least specify between dissent by word/action for example)
 
This was one of the great advances that came with WGS. There was never any need to write anything other than "I cautioned X for X in the X minute, I cautioned X for X in the X minute, I therefore sent him off for S7" essentially, yet because it was a full report it felt like it expected a long report.
 
I should clarify that this was not the case for this incident, but:

On a slightly related note, what's the procedure for reporting a player who refused to leave the pitch? Normally, a little reluctance or having to be removed by teammates having been sent off for S1-S6 could be included in the written report surely? But if a player refuses to leave the FOP having been sent off for S7, then you either have to not mention it, or escalate all the way to a separate misconduct report - which normally you'd reserve for a player who continued to be disruptive in other ways having been sent off?
 
GraemeS said:
I should clarify that this was not the case for this incident, but:

On a slightly related note, what's the procedure for reporting a player who refused to leave the pitch? Normally, a little reluctance or having to be removed by teammates having been sent off for S1-S6 could be included in the written report surely? But if a player refuses to leave the FOP having been sent off for S7, then you either have to not mention it, or escalate all the way to a separate misconduct report - which normally you'd reserve for a player who continued to be disruptive in other ways having been sent off?
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If he refused to leave play significantly then write a second misconduct report. If he lagged a bit to protest his innocence and with a bit of persuasion from his team mates left then I wouldn't bother.
 
YorkshireReferee said:
If he refused to leave play significantly then write a second misconduct report. If he lagged a bit to protest his innocence and with a bit of persuasion from his team mates left then I wouldn't bother.
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Do you do the same with S1 to S6 incidents?

If I was writing a written report, I might comment on how the player was reluctant to leave, or had to be led from the FOP by his teammates, which would seem like a middle-ground between ignoring it completely and filing a separate misconduct report for serious after-card incidents. But WGS doesn't give me this opportunity for S7's. We have to either ignore it, or treat it as a serious incident.
 
GraemeS said:
Do you do the same with S1 to S6 incidents?

If I was writing a written report, I might comment on how the player was reluctant to leave, or had to be led from the FOP by his teammates, which would seem like a middle-ground between ignoring it completely and filing a separate misconduct report for serious after-card incidents. But WGS doesn't give me this opportunity for S7's. We have to either ignore it, or treat it as a serious incident.
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That is why you should always separate the offence for being sent off from any post-dismissal reaction.

Once you have sent the player off, it is continuing misconduct which requires an extraordinary report.

Example, you send a player off for DOGSO. You write a report describing the DOGSO incident. After being sent off, he then stands over the player he has fouled, accusing him of cheating and uses OFFINABUS towards him and then you. This second part goes in the second report.

For his first offence he receives a suspension from football for the day on which he plays - if it happens on a Saturday, he is suspended for Saturday football only; if it happens on a Sunday, he is suspended from Sunday football only.

For the second offence he receives a suspension from all football. It is intended to discourage post-dismissal misconduct and therefore make life easier for match officials.
 
I've often found that if you put it on the same report your CFA are more likely to coast over it and just issue a ban for S7. If you submit a separate report there more likely to issue a second charge.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
That is why you should always separate the offence for being sent off from any post-dismissal reaction.

Once you have sent the player off, it is continuing misconduct which requires an extraordinary report.

Example, you send a player off for DOGSO. You write a report describing the DOGSO incident. After being sent off, he then stands over the player he has fouled, accusing him of cheating and uses OFFINABUS towards him and then you. This second part goes in the second report.

For his first offence he receives a suspension from football for the day on which he plays - if it happens on a Saturday, he is suspended for Saturday football only; if it happens on a Sunday, he is suspended from Sunday football only.

For the second offence he receives a suspension from all football. It is intended to discourage post-dismissal misconduct and therefore make life easier for match officials.
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But you're specifically talking about a very serious post-dismissal reaction, for which I would always put in a separate report. I'm talking about a more mild reaction, perhaps not worthy of a ban in itself, but still a noticable one that for whatever reason, I want to note down. I don't want to submit a separate misconduct report, but I want it in writing that he had to be removed by teammates for the sake of a complete record.
 
GraemeS said:
But you're specifically talking about a very serious post-dismissal reaction, for which I would always put in a separate report. I'm talking about a more mild reaction, perhaps not worthy of a ban in itself, but still a noticable one that for whatever reason, I want to note down. I don't want to submit a separate misconduct report, but I want it in writing that he had to be removed by teammates for the sake of a complete record.
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It seems like you want both things at once.
 
GraemeS said:
But you're specifically talking about a very serious post-dismissal reaction, for which I would always put in a separate report. I'm talking about a more mild reaction, perhaps not worthy of a ban in itself, but still a noticable one that for whatever reason, I want to note down. I don't want to submit a separate misconduct report, but I want it in writing that he had to be removed by teammates for the sake of a complete record.
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personally i'd file the extra report and leave it to be decided what happens thereafter by the powers that be.... if its trivial enough not to warrant further punishment then fine, it will get filed away, but at the same time you have got it there in writing for your own records should there be any comeback
 
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YorkshireReferee said:
It seems like you want both things at once.
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Maybe that's fair. I'm just saying that I think there's a middle ground between walking off quietly and committing misconduct that would have got you dismissed in it's own right. And if it happens, I'm not sure why the system seems designed to not let me record it?
 
GraemeS said:
Maybe that's fair. I'm just saying that I think there's a middle ground between walking off quietly and committing misconduct that would have got you dismissed in it's own right. And if it happens, I'm not sure why the system seems designed to not let me record it?
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Because it either requires an extra misconduct charge or it doesn't. They can't just add an extra day onto the original suspension without adding an extra misconduct charge. They can't ban somebody for two games for S7 because he didn't quite leave the field fast enough, but they can ban someone for S7 for one game and then ban them for an extra game for failing to leave the field of play on request.

If the issue you describe isn't worth at least an extra game ban, why are you mentioning it? What do you expect your CFA to do with the information? It has no impact on the original dismissal offence.
 
Once you send someone off for second caution able offence you then just put it to a red on the whole game
 
GraemeS said:
But you're specifically talking about a very serious post-dismissal reaction, for which I would always put in a separate report. I'm talking about a more mild reaction, perhaps not worthy of a ban in itself, but still a noticable one that for whatever reason, I want to note down. I don't want to submit a separate misconduct report, but I want it in writing that he had to be removed by teammates for the sake of a complete record.
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No I'm talking about any act of misconduct separate from the offence which resulted in the dismissal, which takes place after the dismissal has been made. If you don't want to submit a separate report, that's your choice however you're creating extra work for the governance department at your County FA who will have to raise the separate misconduct report without your report. If they don't the punishment the player receives will not reflect the seriousness of his actions.
 
GraemeS said:
Maybe that's fair. I'm just saying that I think there's a middle ground between walking off quietly and committing misconduct that would have got you dismissed in it's own right. And if it happens, I'm not sure why the system seems designed to not let me record it?
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What's the point in recording it though if you don't want them to take any action? You either want to report him for continuing misconduct or you don't. If you do you submit a misconduct report, if you don't you just submit the S7 WGS report.

This is no different to before really, even with the old Excel system it was not good practice to include misconduct on the same form as the S7 report. Chances are the discipline department would see S7 and ignore the text, in which case you've wasted their time, or they are left scratching their heads as to what to actually do with the report. Some CFAs would send it back and tell you to submit two individual reports.
 
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