A&H

City vs Chelsea

RustyRef said:
I don't think was a handball now and I don't think it would have been 15 years ago. He was jumping so his arms will come up, the arm hit the ball as it was coming back down, I just see that as a normal footballing action. I know some say that he knew the ball was going between him and the player next to him so moved his arm to the ball, but that would be a nigh on impossible reaction with the ball moving at that speed
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I don't disagree with your reasoning.
But referee have been giving anything that touches a slightly outstretched arm for a few years now. This is getting given 9/10 times IMO.
In Europe competition, there wouldn't even be a debate.
 
The Referee Store
deusex said:
I don't disagree with your reasoning.
But referee have been giving anything that touches a slightly outstretched arm for a few years now. This is getting given 9/10 times IMO.
In Europe competition, there wouldn't even be a debate.
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I'd agree with you for games in Europe, but less so in England.
 
RustyRef said:
I'd agree with you for games in Europe, but less so in England.
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Probably better the way they do it in Europe because it's more consistent, any arm away from the body and potentially giving an advantage to the defending team should be penilised.

I mean how many handballs are properly deliberate and intentional, hardly any but that shouldn't mean they should not be punished. This one and the one at Everton are 2 clear handballs that should of resulted in penalties. Anywhere else on the field, the ref would blow up no doubt so why any different when it's in the box.
 
Viridis1886 said:
I just don't think I know what handball is any more.
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The problem is everyone interprets it different, it’s like a tackle, to ref A scenario A might just be a foul, but for ref B a booking. But with handball it’s a lot more noticeable thats the problem. That’s why I agree with what @RustyRef said about the difference in England and Europe because it’s how the ref interprets it. “Was the body unnaturally bigger” “where on the arm/hand did the ball hit” and of course between different countries fa’s the guidance and training will differ to a degree despite Ifab rules
 
Paul_10 said:
Probably better the way they do it in Europe because it's more consistent, any arm away from the body and potentially giving an advantage to the defending team should be penilised.

I mean how many handballs are properly deliberate and intentional, hardly any but that shouldn't mean they should not be punished. This one and the one at Everton are 2 clear handballs that should of resulted in penalties. Anywhere else on the field, the ref would blow up no doubt so why any different when it's in the box.
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I've said for a while that "what football expects" with handball is for it to be punished when an advantage is gained from it.

But that's so difficult to write a law for that would give consistent results, so we end up ignoring the outcome that fans actually expect to matter, and trying to write a law based on inputs. And that's functionally the same as carefully calculating a number, adding a randomly-generated number and then going "odd = penalty, even = no penalty" and then being surprised when your carefully calculated number give different end results.
 
I think one big problem is UEFA’s guidance is being followed in European competitions and some leagues - but it is extreme and I personally don’t think it’s what football wants or expects - and it is not what UK football, the prem or PGMOL want. Which puts PGMOL and prem refs in a tough spot.

It’s like it’s another experimental law, poorly tested, not simple and universal enough.
 
santa sangria said:
I think one big problem is UEFA’s guidance is being followed in European competitions and some leagues - but it is extreme and I personally don’t think it’s what football wants or expects - and it is not what UK football, the prem or PGMOL want. Which puts PGMOL and prem refs in a tough spot.

It’s like it’s another experimental law, poorly tested, not simple and universal enough.
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I mean, I think that happens even inconsistently though an individual league.

The PL has around of third of it's SG1 officials that also have FIFA badges of some sort - so a third of the officials are being taught some combination of FIFA and PGMOL "directives" and the other two thirds only get the PGMOL guidance (and likely do fewer and lower-profile games on average too).

You've got a fairly obvious reason for there being at least two different approaches - and the reality is, that third who get different directives are all going to fall somewhere different on the PGMOL/FIFA axis of their understanding. And that's assuming FIFA and PGMOL are able to perfectly and consistently drill in the exact same understanding of law to every official, which is clearly not the case - so you even get variation in what each official thinks their boss(es) want(s) before you start to worry about their ability to apply different teachings in different games depending on the competition. Different versions of handball was never going to work.
 
GraemeS said:
I mean, I think that happens even inconsistently though an individual league.

The PL has around of third of it's SG1 officials that also have FIFA badges of some sort - so a third of the officials are being taught some combination of FIFA and PGMOL "directives" and the other two thirds only get the PGMOL guidance (and likely do fewer and lower-profile games on average too).

You've got a fairly obvious reason for there being at least two different approaches - and the reality is, that third who get different directives are all going to fall somewhere different on the PGMOL/FIFA axis of their understanding. And that's assuming FIFA and PGMOL are able to perfectly and consistently drill in the exact same understanding of law to every official, which is clearly not the case - so you even get variation in what each official thinks their boss(es) want(s) before you start to worry about their ability to apply different teachings in different games depending on the competition. Different versions of handball was never going to work.
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I think 2 (or more) interpretations is exactly what we have.

But this is also like the prem mantra to avoid cards and keep 11 on the field.

Or the major international tournament syndrome of suddenly lowering the bar to card.

There seems to be a constant power struggle with the prem wanting different laws. We can cope with that. But the prem is taking a risk as it makes inconsistencies (and mistakes) more glaring.
 
@GraemeS They aren't FIFA directives, they're UEFA ones.

They'll be another set of instructions when they go off for a World Cup training camps ran by FIFA but they'll be less officials from England.
 
bester said:
@GraemeS They aren't FIFA directives, they're UEFA ones.

They'll be another set of instructions when they go off for a World Cup training camps ran by FIFA but they'll be less officials from England.
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Fair enough, correction noted - but I don't think it materially changes the point I was making.
 
RustyRef said:
That isn't what the law says though. At the time the ball hit his arm it was in a perfectly expected position for the footballing action being undertaken.
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RustyRef said:
He had his arm on the shoulder of the person next to him in the wall, he then jumps and as he comes back down his hand falls towards his body, that to me is an entirely natural position. Had he left his arm out horizontal and the ball hit it then I would say penalty, or had his arm gone the other way, i.e. started by his body and come upwards, I would also say penalty. But I just don't see any intentional handling nor the arm not being in an unjustifiable position here.
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I agree no penalty. Is there any guidance on the positions of arms in walls?
 
Paul_10 said:
I mean how many handballs are properly deliberate and intentional, hardly any but that shouldn't mean they should not be punished.
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Funny, I would have said the exact opposite. Obviously I'm a little behind the times (and it's not what the laws say now) but for me, the only time a handling offence should ever be punished is if it's properly deliberate and intentional.
 
Peter Grove said:
Funny, I would have said the exact opposite. Obviously I'm a little behind the times (and it's not what the laws say now) but for me, the only time a handling offence should ever be punished is if it's properly deliberate and intentional.
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And how do you define that? Plus that means players can have arms well away from the body and gain an unfair advantage.

Proximity should come into it hence I think the Coventry penalty yesterday is a little unlucky but supportable as a penalty(VAR was right not to get involved). How close is close should be better defined but if there is a reasonable distance and it hits an arm away from the body then it should be a penalty as the defender is stopping the ball potentially going into a promising situation. I think even in most European leagues handballs which are tucked into the body are not given anymore but it they are outstretched then your running the risk.
 
Peter Grove said:
Funny, I would have said the exact opposite. Obviously I'm a little behind the times (and it's not what the laws say now) but for me, the only time a handling offence should ever be punished is if it's properly deliberate and intentional.
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Exactly that! It's gotten ridiculous now.

The whole concept of "handball" is that it's cheating in football and therefore a cardinal sin. Except now, there are so many daft caveats (no doubt well intentioned) tagged onto it in the vain hope of helping a referee identify what may or may not have been "cheating". All it's done is muddy the waters even further and a player can now be penalised for effectively doing nothing wrong or just being unfortunate.
 
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