A&H

no stepped approach to dissent

K

Kent Ref

RefChat Addict
Yesterday i reffed blue v reds adults game.

In the 2nd minute i gave offside against a blue player. Ball is dead at this point.

Blues goalkeeper shouts from his goal line (80 yards away roughly) "that's never offside ref. Have a word with the lino".

How would the goalkeeper have any credible view - anyway.

I get to the keeper and sin binned him as i don't think the stepped approach as being right here. You cannot get away with that behaviour IMHO.

Firstly would anybody have done anything different here?

Secondly the correct restart was the offside free-kick - not a IDFK from the goalkeeper - right?

There were no more cards in the game and the keeper was big enough to apologise after.
 
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The restart was correct. You had stopped play for offside so the ball was out of play.
Not sure I'd be sin binning for that, it would take some chirping at multiple decisions at that low level dissent to get me twitching for a sin bin, but hey it worked for you so I'm not critisizing.
 
JamesL said:
The restart was correct. You had stopped play for offside so the ball was out of play.
Not sure I'd be sin binning for that, it would take some chirping at multiple decisions at that low level dissent to get me twitching for a sin bin, but hey it worked for you so I'm not critisizing.
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I would probably sin bin for that as it's such a public disagreement, if you've heard it from that far away so has everyone else and that's not on imo.

To me that's no different to a nailed on caution for RP early on, I had 2 in a game recently, away team on 4 minutes (even more bizarre, attacker fouled defender on edge of defenders penalty area, so not exactly like it was a promising attack or anything), home team on 14 minutes, then funnily enough no more until the 88th minute where I had my third and final one. I like to think the first 2 did the trick.

As JamesL says, it worked for you so absolutely nothing wrong with it imo, show the teams you won't take any rubbish early on and they'll either make your life easier or you'll make your own life easier (generally).
 
wazztie16 said:
I would probably sin bin for that as it's such a public disagreement, if you've heard it from that far away so has everyone else and that's not on imo.

To me that's no different to a nailed on caution for RP early on, I had 2 in a game recently, away team on 4 minutes (even more bizarre, attacker fouled defender on edge of defenders penalty area, so not exactly like it was a promising attack or anything), home team on 14 minutes, then funnily enough no more until the 88th minute where I had my third and final one. I like to think the first 2 did the trick.

As JamesL says, it worked for you so absolutely nothing wrong with it imo, show the teams you won't take any rubbish early on and they'll either make your life easier or you'll make your own life easier (generally).
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The distance and the loudness is the trigger, for me.

I'd never call that "low level".
 
I think that again it comes down to what aspirations you have as a referee. At L4 and above there is absolutely no way that is being supported as a caution, whilst at grass roots it will be.
 
RustyRef said:
I think that again it comes down to what aspirations you have as a referee. At L4 and above there is absolutely no way that is being supported as a caution, whilst at grass roots it will be.
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I think I got that right then as I'm level 5 and generally do parks pitches. I'm happy with the caution at my level.
 
As James said, it’s where you draw the line personally. If you’re happy with it, I’m with you.

For myself, I’d be getting the captain and keeper together for a chat. Next time anyone on that team crosses the line, they’re in the bin
 
A quiet word to the captain at most. Do me a favour skipper... tell your keeper if he wants to give offsides, I'm happy to put him on the touchline so he can see better...

Never a sin bin. Sell your cautions. Make sure there's proper justification for them.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
A quiet word to the captain at most. Do me a favour skipper... tell your keeper if he wants to give offsides, I'm happy to put him on the touchline so he can see better...

Never a sin bin. Sell your cautions. Make sure there's proper justification for them.
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Disagreement or dissent?

Personally this falls into the former category. He’s a long way away from the incident so his comment just makes him look silly. Point it out, “You’re miles away. Not a chance”.

Brian’s suggestion is a good one. By doing this here you’re opening yourself up to additional criticism if you don’t bin the next one, especially if it’s an opposition player.

Can you deal with it in a different way and still be as effective?
 
Tealeaf said:
Disagreement or dissent?

Personally this falls into the former category. He’s a long way away from the incident so his comment just makes him look silly. Point it out, “You’re miles away. Not a chance”.

Brian’s suggestion is a good one. By doing this here you’re opening yourself up to additional criticism if you don’t bin the next one, especially if it’s an opposition player.

Can you deal with it in a different way and still be as effective?
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How can a keeper, 80 yards away, disagree? What would his argument be based upon? Which makes me ask the question the keeper's motives here.

This player was mouthing off pointlessly. If no action was taken by me i would have been unable to take action against anybody else (consistency in any one game) as it would of been unfair?

You said about opening yourself up for criticism if you don't bin the next one - if i'd binned the next one that player would of said "the keeper got away with it. How come i don't?"

In this game nobody else did this as i had made the point (very early).
 
Kent Ref said:
How can a keeper, 80 yards away, disagree? What would his argument be based upon? Which makes me ask the question the keeper's motives here.

This player was mouthing off pointlessly. If no action was taken by me i would have been unable to take action against anybody else (consistency in any one game) as it would of been unfair?

You said about opening yourself up for criticism if you don't bin the next one - if i'd binned the next one that player would of said "the keeper got away with it. How come i don't?"

In this game nobody else did this as i had made the point (very early).
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Edited: think I was a bit cranky this morning without good reason!!

In my opinion, it's sounds like a throw away comment and as always with these things context and delivery are really important.

I just don't see this, as a first thing to happen/be said in a game, as worthy of a sin bin but similarly I can't say you were wrong as because on this occasion it worked for you. I can say with a great deal of confidence that there will be many games where this approach will not work and you'll probably wind up with and abandonment OR at minimum a very difficult game.

As for the promotion and integrity. I think anyone on the pathway will find that offensive and at bare minimum show a lack of understanding of the expectations at level 4 and above. Last season, in which I was promoted I was the highest user of the sinbin on the league I was on (at one point I had done a 1/6 of the league total (from around 40-50 referees). It's not about sin binning every minor disagreement, it's about using the sin bin for the right offences at the right time.

Yes, there are some you can't ignore, but I think the expectation of a l5-4 referee or higher is management 1st with this one and I think it's even a competency in fact..
 
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I’m with the wouldn't have binned him crowd (no sin bins here)
I personally would have laughed it off or suggested that he must have some vision.
 
No Sin Bin for me.

Based on what I'm reading, I'd be more likely to laugh loudly at the GK and shout something like "You've really got to be joking Goalkeeper - enough now please!" (whilst shaking my head).

Each to their own I guess. ...
 
Kent Ref said:
This player was mouthing off pointlessly. If no action was taken by me i would have been unable to take action against anybody else (consistency in any one game) as it would of been unfair?
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To be fair, no one on here is suggesting that you take 'no action'. The debate is simply what is the best form of action. Whilst this ticks the box for being "Public" (and therefore requires some form of response) because it's not "Provocative" or hugely "Personal" I'd be seeing this as the perfect opportunity to nip in the bud any future issues .. taking the time to stop the game and then clearly communicate to the GK and everyone else (via words and body language) that you weren't ok with what he did. As others have said, this actually increases your opportunity to take action against other transgressors as you've set out your stall really clearly. That said, what you did is certainly not incorrect, just possibly sub-optimal.
 
RustyRef said:
I think that again it comes down to what aspirations you have as a referee. At L4 and above there is absolutely no way that is being supported as a caution, whilst at grass roots it will be.
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Sorry if I'm misinterpreting but surely you can have L4 ambitions whilst realising at L7/6 you're best clamping down harder on public dissent like this
 
Russell Jones said:
To be fair, no one on here is suggesting that you take 'no action'. The debate is simply what is the best form of action. Whilst this ticks the box for being "Public" (and therefore requires some form of response) because it's not "Provocative" or hugely "Personal" I'd be seeing this as the perfect opportunity to nip in the bud any future issues .. taking the time to stop the game and then clearly communicate to the GK and everyone else (via words and body language) that you weren't ok with what he did. As others have said, this actually increases your opportunity to take action against other transgressors as you've set out your stall really clearly. That said, what you did is certainly not incorrect, just possibly sub-optimal.
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What does suboptimal mean Oxford English Dictionary?

/ˌsʌbˈɑːptɪməl/ of less than the best standard or quality.

Really?
 
Kent Ref said:
What does suboptimal mean Oxford English Dictionary?

/ˌsʌbˈɑːptɪməl/ of less than the best standard or quality.

Really?
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Yup, in my opinion, the sin bin route (whilst entirely acceptable and supportable in law) was not the best approach to the situation you faced. Which is probably why the vast majority of posters, including two Level 3's, three Level 5s and two Observers, have advocated alternative approaches. In your OP, you asked "would anybody have done anything different" ... I think you have your answer! :)
 
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